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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

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Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#261

Post by stainforth »

strictnein wrote: post #244
jusssi wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the difference between a junior and a senior. The latter has better expectations of what one can get done in an average workday, and the confidence to push back with "sorry, looks like this thing's more work than expected, going to need another two days for it". Btw. Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment.

> Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment. Someday maybe our betters in Europe will understand that the American experience with unions is different than that of Europeans. And that American unions are a very different animal. Until that time, though, keep thinking we're just idiots.

The destruction of unions in America was not for righteous reasons.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#262

Post by theshrike79 »

strictnein wrote: post #244
jusssi wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the difference between a junior and a senior. The latter has better expectations of what one can get done in an average workday, and the confidence to push back with "sorry, looks like this thing's more work than expected, going to need another two days for it". Btw. Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment.

> Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment. Someday maybe our betters in Europe will understand that the American experience with unions is different than that of Europeans. And that American unions are a very different animal. Until that time, though, keep thinking we're just idiots.

"Union" and "Socialism" have very different meanings on your side of the pacific :)

Just the stories about how union work is handled on US movie sets is just baffling. Directors can't even touch the lights without an Official Light Mover Union member doing it. If they do, all union people will just walk off set and that's the end of it.

In most European countries unions are more about collectively agreeing to some basic rules like wage, hours worked and other compensations.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#263

Post by theshrike79 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #207
gtfoutttt wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Then the work doesn't get completed on time! That's bad management not hiring enough people, not the fault of the employee. SMH y'all IT people need a union.

> Then the work doesn't get completed on time! Do you realise in some fields work not getting completed on time could in some cases cause people to die? Sometimes there is an emergency, and a professional saying 'sorry nope on vacation your fault for not having enough people to cover every eventuality' just isn't reasonable.

If there is an actual emergency, there are clear rules of escalation.

The issue is escalated through different support levels up to the on-call person, if they can't handle it then MAYBE people are bothered during their vacation.

Or if production breaks at 1600 on a friday night, I can maybe work extra hours to solve the issue if it looks like I'm essential to solving it. It just means that I'm coming later on monday to make up for the hours.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#264

Post by lotsofpulp »

claudeganon wrote: post #256
colejohnson66 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not denying that there are Democrats who support business over workers. All I said was that the Republican Party (in Congress) seems to believe that any and all is bad while Democrats believe in some or more (depending on how you feel). It also doesn’t help that people want to label everyone so much to fit into just two categories. Feinstein (D-CA) is very pro-surveillance while some of the party (in congress) be…

The beliefs of individual members of the Democratic Party are largely irrelevant compared to how they function collectively as a political body at both the state and national level. With that view, they've been definitively anti-worker since the Clinton era and have been shifting further and further right since Reagan's presidency. The obstacle to change in this country is not the Republican party, but Democrats who…

Basically every state that has a semblance of worker protections is led by Democrats. They aren’t perfect, but the problem isn’t mostly Democrats, who at the federal level can’t get anything done without support from Republicans, who are far from making worker protections any part of their initiatives.

It’s funny how federal government employees got paid parental leave though, but no legislation for non government employees was brought to the floor.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#265

Post by mewpmewp2 »

vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

While it seems good I am afraid as an European I will start getting even smaller salary compared to US counterparts. There will be less incentive to hire someone from Europe for international companies. I know this is an unpopular opinion. I work for an international company and I already get paid around 2-3x less than US counterparts at the same level.

I do work a lot, but I have accepted the fact if it means I can earn more. I can retire that much earlier this way.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#266

Post by koonsolo »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #174
Hamuko wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "confidence" of senior people to push back is greatly enhanced by the fact that they won't be expediently fired for doing so. There's a problem with your country if you can be fired for refusing overtime.

(in America) There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. Whether you work 35 or 60 hours, it’s the same pay.[a] As a result, employers don’t have to worry about overtime pay, only burnt out employees (but entry and junior levels are disposable, right? /s) [a]: This also leads to the employer expecting one to be “on call” 24/7 regardles…

Wow. It's very much regulated here in belgium. 38 hours and 20 holidays. If you do 40 hours, you get extra holidays for those hours.

It's clear in the contract how many hours you do for which pay.

Working on Saturday needs to be 150% compensated and Sunday 200%, but I might be wrong on this last part.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#267

Post by gnud »

ghaff wrote: post #128
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty sweeping generalization to think that the answer is either "yes" or "no". Of course some people will lie and cheat their way through life, so yes, some people will pretend to be sick in order to use up their X sick days. And yes, we could make it harder to cheat by making rules, such as always requiring a doctor's notice for sick days. Is the problem large enough that you need to prevent people from c…

Historically, when sick and vacation were more typically separate pools, the answer was definitely it depended. It's not hard to find studies showing that Mondays and Fridays saw a disproportionate number (i.e. not just 20%) of single day sick days. And, I'm sure, the pattern wasn't spread evenly across everyone. Personally, although I've fortunately had much need to take an appreciable number of sick days, I favor t…

> It's not hard to find studies showing that Mondays and Fridays saw a disproportionate number (i.e. not just 20%) of single day sick days.

Well, that makes sense. When I'm stressed at work, I often get sick at the weekend. Makes sense it could start early, or leak into the next week.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#268

Post by xg15 »

bobthechef wrote: post #165
gtfoutttt wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Then the work doesn't get completed on time! That's bad management not hiring enough people, not the fault of the employee. SMH y'all IT people need a union.

While I sympathize with the need to push back on bad management, the situation is a bit like being between a rock (bad management) and a hard place (unions). Tyranny of the few vs. tyranny of the majority or the mob. The latter is worse. It's also kind of a mediocre bandaid for deeper social problems. An employer that can get away with asking you to do unreasonable amounts of work, work ridiculous hours, or achieve i…

You still expect the 'mob' to work for you though, do you?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#269

Post by mikem170 »

avianlyric wrote: post #154
mikem170 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year. If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

My go to answer to questions like this is pretty simple. We shouldn’t punish the majority for the indiscretions of the few. Ultimately some people will abuse sick leave, just like everything else in life. But those individuals should be dealt with on a individual basis. Otherwise you just end up treating everyone like a criminal, at which point for an individual there’s no advantage to not engaging in abusive behavio…

Who are we punishing here, though? If we gave everyone all their days off in one pool then all the days could be used. Having the extra rules about sick vs personal just benefits the company. EDIT: I guess we are saying that the company benefits if you are not sick, and the healthy people don't get more days off than sick people.

For people who would have trouble managing their time, like an illness late in the year, just allow a bunch of days to be rolled over to be used before the end of the next year.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#270

Post by treis »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #233
treis wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make. The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you will have times that you need to work off hours. Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday". It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the…

It is a balance. But the point GP is making (it seems) is that if “shit [does] hit the fan,” you should be paid overtime for it, not have it be part of your job. It’s a cultural difference really.

It doesn't really work because the incentives become misaligned. It becomes a good thing for workers to have things go wrong and for them to be inefficient with their time. Organizations end up much less flexible because they then don't trust their workers not to milk them.

Ultimately it changes from paying someone to get a job done to paying them for hours worked. Anyone that's hired a plumber knows that you get far faster and efficient work in the first situation.

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