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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

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Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#231

Post by texasbigdata »

Hamuko wrote: post #182
colejohnson66 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(in America) There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. Whether you work 35 or 60 hours, it’s the same pay.[a] As a result, employers don’t have to worry about overtime pay, only burnt out employees (but entry and junior levels are disposable, right? /s) [a]: This also leads to the employer expecting one to be “on call” 24/7 regardles…

> There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well. I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer)…

You guys unioned as a cross company group of 1 (or several closely related) functional roles? That’s super interesting! Do any entry level people NOT accept membership to the union or undercut in any way? Do you require your employee to be a “union” shop to work there?

I think it’s beautiful your vacation hours are set out, etc.

It seems like there could be some issues if every vertical had one of these (“oh no, the real estate team has 7 weeks of vacation but the HR team only has 2?”) but outside of that it’s beautiful what y’all did as a collective entity. This is super eye opening, thanks for sharing.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#232

Post by closeparen »

allendoerfer wrote: post #161

Protecting worker-rights was the reason why Germany's oldest democratic party SPD (and thus the base of German democracy) was founded, emerging from unions. It totally makes sense to continue to adapt those rights to changing environments. Like the proposed "off-times" while working from home. What I don't like is the tax-system getting ever more complicated. Now we are talking about a 600 € deductible for working fr…

The framing of “tax credits for working families” neuters some of the ideological opposition you would otherwise get to “tax cuts” or “spending” even if all three are economically equivalent.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#233

Post by colejohnson66 »

treis wrote: post #204
Hamuko wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well. I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer)…

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make. The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you will have times that you need to work off hours. Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday". It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the…

It is a balance. But the point GP is making (it seems) is that if “shit [does] hit the fan,” you should be paid overtime for it, not have it be part of your job. It’s a cultural difference really.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#234

Post by mediascreen »

Gwypaas wrote: post #119
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty sweeping generalization to think that the answer is either "yes" or "no". Of course some people will lie and cheat their way through life, so yes, some people will pretend to be sick in order to use up their X sick days. And yes, we could make it harder to cheat by making rules, such as always requiring a doctor's notice for sick days. Is the problem large enough that you need to prevent people from c…

Or simply add some flexibility. The rules are similar in Sweden, with the caveat that if an employer suspects that an employee actually is not sick they can demand a doctor's note which the employer then pays for. If the note shows that the employee cheated you get a warning. If the action is repeated then a doctor's note can be required from day one. Start with good faith, but add some flexibility.

One weird thing here in Sweden, is that you can take sick leave from your vacation. So if you get the flu during your vacation you can call in sick and not use your vacation days while you are sick. I have never heard of anyone doing this though and I would personally be too embarrassed to use the system in that way.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#235

Post by kube-system »

blonde_ocean wrote: post #142
CommanderData wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rights aren't a thing until done by law. Otherwise you are at mercy of company policy or whims of your employer.

From a US Constitutional perspective, rights are inherent, and the Bill of Rights protects citizens from laws that infringe on those rights. Rights are not given by the government via laws, they are inherent protections from invasive laws set by government.

That concept is called 'natural rights', and it wasn't invented by the US constitution. That document is just one of the more notable formal recognitions of natural rights in modern times.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#236

Post by colejohnson66 »

claudeganon wrote: post #218
colejohnson66 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in America, a good portion of it is a cultural difference. The EU tends to take worker protections more seriously without considering collateral damage (according to some). OTOH, America just does nothing because there’s an entire political party who’s big premise is “any and all regulation is bad regulation.”

There's a bipartisan consensus that working people should be screwed. Uber's c-suite is staffed by Democratic Party insiders and they just got Prop 22 passed, Democratic leaders just came out in support of a stimulus bill that indemnifies companies against COVID-related harms they place their employees in to keep making money. You can find no shortage of well-paid liberals on this site that will tell you that unions…

I’m not denying that there are Democrats who support business over workers. All I said was that the Republican Party (in Congress) seems to believe that any and all is bad while Democrats believe in some or more (depending on how you feel).

It also doesn’t help that people want to label everyone so much to fit into just two categories. Feinstein (D-CA) is very pro-surveillance while some of the party (in congress) believes otherwise. Romney (R-UT) voted to convict Trump while every other Republican voted to acquit.

I’ll admit it is a bit hypocritical of me to lump all Republicans together, so I’ll clarify with: it’s where the party (in congress) seems to be heading (or already is). Obviously not all Republicans support that idea.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#237

Post by ytwySXpMbS »

treis wrote: post #204
Hamuko wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well. I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer)…

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make. The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you will have times that you need to work off hours. Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday". It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the…

Well yes, everything is hunky dory if you work in an atypically well paid industry. It’s still a problem for the rest of the country, I imagine teachers aren’t too happy about unpaid overtime for instance.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#239

Post by Zenst »

tcldr wrote: post #209
OneGuy123 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an European I can tell you that Europeans feel completely disconnected from those EU politicians, they do whatever they please and there is no real input from anyone. The isolated themselves and then force countries into submission via monetary fines if they don't get in line.

That's exactly the line most of the press seem to tout – and it's that 'feeling' which has been exploited by those who see the EU as an obstacle to their regulatory goals or vision. The fact is that you get to vote for your MEP if you choose to, and they in turn for the commission. It's weird that on the one hand people say the EU "[does] whatever they please and there is no real input from anyone" and on the other h…

Some member countries got to vote in the last and one before MEP elections for candidates that did not represent the ruling group that runs the EU.

Bit like say New York voting for Mr Happy as President and the country all votes for Mr Sad who has candidates in every state apart from New York. Now in that instance the people of New York's democratic say be kinda futile say in who runs the country as they had no chance. THAT is exactly how MEP voting choice was in some EU member countries that didn't have any EPP representation, say or choice and not a single EPP MEP voted for and yet it is the EPP that runs the EU.

Yes the EU isn't perfect but when they can't even sort out their own accounts and get them signed off year upon year, that's not a good sign of leadership or credibility. Heck even they admit they need to reform, which is sad as they didn't admit that until after the whole UK interdependence vote and that vote only came about as the UK leadership went to the EU for reforms and got palmed off with some tokens. Ironically had the EU even bothered to do any attempt at reform before the UK left, the UK could of tabled another vote as things would of changed and sadly the EU didn't do that and more so France been insistent that any reforms do not happen until the UK has left.

Remember that the EU was a trade agreement that people voted to join, what it became is something the people had no direct say in at all and that was the root of much divide that has grown over the past few decades. Me I do feel it is in the best interest of the EU and the UK to divorce as the UK has held the EU back upon many votes and looking at the voting history shows this and the EU could of had better financial regulations decades ago, regulations needed to work with the EURO financial model and that has not been good for the Euro.

No tabloid or other such outlet was used to form this opinion, other opinions may vary.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#240

Post by kube-system »

CommanderData wrote: post #17
dahfizz wrote: post #7

> The right to disconnect refers to a worker’s right to be able to disengage from work and refrain from engaging in work-related electronic communications, such as emails or other messages, during non-work hours.[1] What does that even mean? Is the EU also going to come out with the "Right to breathe" and the "Right to go to the bathroom when you need to"? I'm really frustrated with how the term "right" has been wate…

Rights aren't a thing until done by law. Otherwise you are at mercy of company policy or whims of your employer.

Natural and human rights exist too, and they are often a bar by which we judge legal rights.
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