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Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

npr.org

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Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#441

Post by ardy42 »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #429
ardy42 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's a really short video of what used to be a "company town" in Appalachia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBCxG_SCnQE That's a great video.

If getting your health insurance through your employer creates dependency and gives your employer more control over you (and it does) then why is it a good idea to give this power to the government?

> If getting your health insurance through your employer creates dependency and gives your employer more control over you (and it does) then why is it a good idea to give this power to the government?

Does your government have due process? If it does, how would that government use an obligation to provide you health insurance against you to influence your decisions?

People quit jobs far more often than they quit countries, and employer provided insurance does tie you to more strongly to your employer (e.g. I knew someone who needed a heart transplant who would literally die if he went without insurance, because he depended on a heart pump).

Also, you have to get insurance/healthcare from somewhere, and in a democracy the government is far more accountable to its citizens than an employer typically is to its employees [1].

[1] This is very clear in the typical case, but less clear for people with rare in-demand skills (like software engineers).

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#442

Post by User23 »

EarthIsHome wrote: post #223
_wldu wrote: post #145

In 1920 Appalachia, coal companies owned all the land, the homes and stores. They also paid workers with their own special money (that was useless everywhere else). The security companies they hired where armed and violent towards miners and their families. https://explorepartsunknown.com/west-virginia/coal-minings-d... Today, people can tour these old towns and learn the history of how the coal companies trapped and…

That "special money" had a name called "the scrip" [0]. Here's a really short video of what used to be a "company town" in Appalachia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBCxG_SCnQE One of the host's grand dad was paid in scrip until the 1970s. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip

The US military paid occupation soldiers in Berlin in scrip too.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#443

Post by MikeTheGreat »

ardy42 wrote: post #324
EarthIsHome wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That "special money" had a name called "the scrip" [0]. Here's a really short video of what used to be a "company town" in Appalachia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBCxG_SCnQE One of the host's grand dad was paid in scrip until the 1970s. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip

> Here's a really short video of what used to be a "company town" in Appalachia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBCxG_SCnQE That's a great video.

That video "has been taken down by the uploader", according to YouTube.

Got another link?

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#444

Post by arrosenberg »

throwawaysea wrote: post #413
arrosenberg wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds good in theory, but essentially gives the company the ability to play groups off each other. The entire point of unionization is to be able to negotiate on level terms. This viewpoint also seems to assume that merit is the most important thing, and that unions should optimize for it. For a union, tenure is super important to maintain its strength. Corporations are held together with contracts and money, s…

I think unions playing off each other is a good thing. Competition is a great mechanism for preventing counterproductive policies like favoring tenure, avoiding accountability, and so forth. There are also other benefits (unrelated to compensation) from having competing unions. To get more concrete about this, consider that the National Education Association (largest union in the US, representing teachers) is very po…

It seems like you ignored my original post, which explained exactly why that idea doesn't work, and why your continued talk about "inefficiency" and ragging on tenure is ignorant.

I'll restate. Labor has to be a single unit in order to negotiate on equal terms with capital. Since unions are formed in a given workplace or industry, it's not like a union or local can negotiate with multiple employers in order to gain leverage. That concept kind of exists in the form of consulting agencies, but they fill a much different niche. Unions optimize their power structure for continuity and cohesion - the efficiency of their employer is highly, highly secondary. This is a good thing, as stable unions means a stable middle class, and low social unrest. Minimizing the labor cost of American businesses is not the end-all, be-all of social KPI.

Based on your comments, I'm guessing you have a specific political bent, but if you do the slightest bit of research, you'll find that people of all persuasions push their ideology via the School Board. Texas is a particularly famous example of right-wing ideologues re-writing history in their way. Unfortunately the humans seem to be the weak point of the system, so the only thing you can do is be involved and build a strong community.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#445

Post by stjohnswarts »

shevek_ wrote: post #331
jamiequint wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You actually believe that Amazon has editorial control over NPR and specifically exerted that leverage to make this article incoherent?

This is the story of our entire media. No, they didn't line by line come in and edit the article, but any media outlet is going to self-censor to not lose a big sponsor. I think that's pretty self-evident at this point. The classic Manufacturing Consent does a deep dive into this dynamic. Related, newspapers are historically unprofitable. Why would someone like Jeff Bezos buy the Washington Post? Like any investment,…

Do you have any proof of that? Otherwise it's just conspiracy theory. Sometimes people do things that don't benefit them. It's called charity. I don't think that Bezos is a saint, but I also don't think he bought the New York Post to be his mouthpiece nor would the editors allow it.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#446

Post by mrtksn »

ryanbrunner wrote: post #426
mrtksn wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess they’re free to try fight it. It doesn’t mean it’s helpless case. Measures and countermeasures, businesses as usual.

Except one party is a billion dollar business, and the other party is a single worker relying on an hourly wage job. Without the threat of collective action, the idea is toothless.

Thanks to the not-union, the other party is not simply a single worker relying on an hourly wage job. Instead , the worker knows what can reasonably get from the company and if the company wrongs the worker, the not-union has the resources to help thanks to the subscription fees collected from the large number of members(potentially billions just like the companies).

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#447

Post by thecleaner »

free2OSS wrote: post #376
selykg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking with my wallet. I no longer use Amazon. Though my employer users AWS. I don't have any swing over that sadly. But for my own money, no more Amazon.

It's pretty easy to avoid Amazon if you are Frugal. Walmart online is cheaper. Most people are too lazy to look at another store.

Is Walmart really that great by comparison ? I wonder what skeletons are up their closet.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#448

Post by claudeganon »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #440
claudeganon wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a distinction without any real difference. You could make the same argument about Planet Money, an NPR show, that went out of the way to provide cover for the banks during the financial crisis, had their host attack Elizabeth Warren in an interview, all while taking money from the same industry. Adam Davidson (the host who attacked Warren) of course then also went on to collect all kinds of "speaking fees" from…

It's a distinction with a difference. And no, I could not make the same argument about Planet Money, since that show is produced by NPR. If you say "American public radio", do you also include Democracy Now? Do you include shows produced by other local stations, including the ones that do not get distributed? NPR is not the totality of "American public radio". Understanding the structure of public broadcasting in the…

Not taking money from the people you’re covering is the barest minimum of journalistic ethics. Regardless, of whether you or I agree with anything else on that site, Adam Davidson, or whoever else, failing to meet that basic standard should be patently disqualifying. The fact that he was the host of a flagship, economic reporting show, even more so.

There are many other reasons I find it hard to take NPR’s claims of impartiality seriously, but this one is so glaringly wrong that it speaks for itself.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#449

Post by samdamsamma »

zmix wrote: post #405
javajosh wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is de facto slavery!

I would call it Capitalism without opposition from the Left.

This is objectively the case. It’s exactly what happens every time the left is broadly defeated. And I literally mean every single time.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#450

Post by rualca »

mrtksn wrote: post #302
Klinky wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's like Glassdoor or Salary.com? That's not a union, that's not HR, that's not armed protection.

Are unions armed protection? Anyway, the idea is to have a coordinator that work on your benefit. Companies, even the large ones are simply people coordinated by the capital owners. The not-union is a coordinator for the people who are not the capital owners but those who deal with the capital owners. The aim is to assist for a fair deal through information, not to extort the capital owners.

> The aim is to assist for a fair deal through information, not to extort the capital owners.

This sounds similar to "the aim is to be good, not bad".

Your assertion does not lie on facts but on your personal moral interpretation and even prejudice against a label.

Unions are organizations whose aim is to represent workers and defend their best interests with the company's representatives.

Sometimes the company's goals are in direct opposition to the workers's best interests. How do you expect the negotiations to go if the company plans to strong-arm and coherce their workers into submissions.

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