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Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

thehill.com

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Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#31

Post by zwily »

purplecats wrote: post #28
jimmyswimmy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the opposite of a biology expert, but from what I've read, the "miscellaneous non-vaccine compounds" in the solution are adjuvants which make the vaccine more effective by provoking the immune system into a response. Without those "non-vaccine compounds" the vaccine itself could be no more effective than a shot of sterile saline - which itself is probably another "non-vaccine compound." Perhaps if you're referrin…

I am, obviously, referring to something else.

To what are you referring then?

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#32

Post by tylerhou »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #25
tylerhou wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Until now the line I have kept hearing is that there is no such thing as herd immunity except that which is realized through universal immunization. You were either hearing the wrong information or misunderstanding it. Herd immunity is absolutely real, and can occur if a virus infects enough people (or enough people are vaccinated). When more people are immune, it will be harder for the virus to spread to a new hos…

> You were either hearing the wrong information or misunderstanding it. Herd immunity is absolutely real, and can occur if a virus infects enough people (or enough people are vaccinated). I was hearing it from people arguing against the Swedish approach of managing the virus without lockdowns. "Encouraging people to go out and get infected" (i.e. actively trying to accelerate the spread and doing nothing to minimize…

> "Encouraging people to go out and get infected"

Yes, this is an exaggeration, but it's not too far from what some people are suggesting. The fact is, without containment measures, there will likely be hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#33

Post by XorNot »

elicash wrote: post #23

I've seen this point made repeatedly, but haven't seen what scientists think is LIKELY -- based on similar vaccines, based on initial data, whatever. I don't know if scientists GENUINELY have no clue, or if maybe we think it'll likely be good news but can't say it yet because we're worried that people will get a vaccine and then behave irresponsibly. It sounds like we're going to start giving this vaccine out without…

Scientists will never go on record saying what they think is likely without having data which says "60% occurrence rate". Because without data, it's just conjecture and guesswork - and they're very likely to be catastrophically wrong, but have their word taken as gospel (then later used as "see scientists are wrong so could be just as right!")

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#34

Post by whimsicalism »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #22
solinent wrote: post #10

I hate to be that person, but I'm personally more worried about the virus mutating under the increased selection pressure. We only defeated polio with a >99% effective vaccine, and the research for this vaccine isn't even available.

Unlike older vaccines (such as polio vaccine) which generally used weakened or killed whole virus particles (and which occasionally produced infectious cases, due to the virus not being as weak or dead as intended), this vaccine contains no whole virus particles and thus cannot result in an infectious case. It contains RNA that cause the patient's cells to emit proteins normally produced by the viral infection (which…

Not that I agree with GPs concern, but this comment doesn't address it whatsoever.

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#35

Post by XorNot »

tylerhou wrote: post #20
AndrewBissell wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until now the line I have kept hearing is that there is no such thing as herd immunity except that which is realized through universal immunization. Now that we're not sure the vaccine will actually work in this way, the new line of reasoning is "well it's just supposed to protect you individually from the disease, not stop it from spreading."

> Until now the line I have kept hearing is that there is no such thing as herd immunity except that which is realized through universal immunization. You were either hearing the wrong information or misunderstanding it. Herd immunity is absolutely real, and can occur if a virus infects enough people (or enough people are vaccinated). When more people are immune, it will be harder for the virus to spread to a new hos…

Herd immunity through infection without a vaccine has never been a serious concept. The scientific community only produced any literature on it in response to requests by governments about what would happen if they did absolutely nothing.

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#36

Post by elicash »

XorNot wrote: post #33
elicash wrote: post #23

I've seen this point made repeatedly, but haven't seen what scientists think is LIKELY -- based on similar vaccines, based on initial data, whatever. I don't know if scientists GENUINELY have no clue, or if maybe we think it'll likely be good news but can't say it yet because we're worried that people will get a vaccine and then behave irresponsibly. It sounds like we're going to start giving this vaccine out without…

Scientists will never go on record saying what they think is likely without having data which says "60% occurrence rate". Because without data, it's just conjecture and guesswork - and they're very likely to be catastrophically wrong, but have their word taken as gospel (then later used as "see scientists are wrong so could be just as right!")

Nobody is asking scientists to say anything without data. What scientists COULD do, for example, is explain what happens with other vaccines, with other viruses.

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#37

Post by XorNot »

tylerhou wrote: post #32
AndrewBissell wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You were either hearing the wrong information or misunderstanding it. Herd immunity is absolutely real, and can occur if a virus infects enough people (or enough people are vaccinated). I was hearing it from people arguing against the Swedish approach of managing the virus without lockdowns. "Encouraging people to go out and get infected" (i.e. actively trying to accelerate the spread and doing nothing to minimize…

> "Encouraging people to go out and get infected" Yes, this is an exaggeration, but it's not too far from what some people are suggesting. The fact is, without containment measures, there will likely be hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.

Millions.

There will be millions of needless deaths. Without containment measures, you no longer have hospitals (either they're full, or the staff are burned out and quit, probably both) for any life-threatening conditions.

The staff thing is the one people seem to completely not get: hospital staff are under absolutely no obligations to keep working overtime shifts. They can in fact simply decide "I'm done" walk off the job and go live in a cabin. Then you get to wait 24 years till we can grow and train some more, minimum.

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#38

Post by TaylorAlexander »

soupfordummies wrote: post #30
hprotagonist wrote: post #14

I certainly intend to stay masked up post-jab(s). I think a month or so after the final dose it will be at the point where any viral load i might be spreading would be pretty much trustable to be at trivial levels, so that's my minimum duration. After that, I'll continue to follow public guidance from local health folks. I don't mind masking up for flights/travel for a bit, or whatever, either, if it shakes out that…

That’s an excellent point about the shoes that I hadn’t put together. I think the vast majority of us think the shoe thing is stupid but we do it cause it’s that or not fly. If only we could get mandated masks, I think we’d already be out of the woods. Although I regularly see <2 unmasked folks total in the grocery stores around me, it’s a fairly liberal area so I’m just rambling now so have a good safe holiday time.

Oh wow. I don’t see any unmasked people at grocery stores near San Francisco. I saw one woman who had her mask down and the store called police because she didn’t put it back on when asked.

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#39

Post by saalweachter »

solinent wrote: post #10

I hate to be that person, but I'm personally more worried about the virus mutating under the increased selection pressure. We only defeated polio with a >99% effective vaccine, and the research for this vaccine isn't even available.

Is this really a concern?

Pruning gene lines from the gene pool only benefits the surviving individuals if it leaves resources on the table for these survivors to be fruitful and multiply, growing to exploit their new niche.

If there are variants of COVID-19 the vaccine doesn't protect against, is there any reason to think they would have been crowded out by the original variants? Wouldn't their ability to bypass immunity to the original version apply equally well to the immunity gained as a result of sickness as to the immunity gained from a vaccine?

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#40

Post by AndrewBissell »

XorNot wrote: post #37
tylerhou wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Encouraging people to go out and get infected" Yes, this is an exaggeration, but it's not too far from what some people are suggesting. The fact is, without containment measures, there will likely be hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.

Millions. There will be millions of needless deaths. Without containment measures, you no longer have hospitals (either they're full, or the staff are burned out and quit, probably both) for any life-threatening conditions. The staff thing is the one people seem to completely not get: hospital staff are under absolutely no obligations to keep working overtime shifts. They can in fact simply decide "I'm done" walk off…

> Without containment measures, you no longer have hospitals (either they're full, or the staff are burned out and quit, probably both) for any life-threatening conditions.

Doesn't seem to be the case so far in Sweden. In fact Minnesota's per-capita rate of COVID deaths just surpassed Sweden's even though they've done much more in the way of lockdowns. Seem to be some confounding variables at play here besides "are you locked down or not?"

> They can in fact simply decide "I'm done" walk off the job and go live in a cabin.

This is a fantasy scenario. Most nurses are probably in no financial position to do this and leaving to find another job is a dicey prospect right now. I agree that we should not put the hospitals or their staff under undue stress which is why it's such a crime that COVID is being used for cover to furlough staff and impose budget cuts.

The degree of hospital overcrowding seems overstated at the moment: https://twitter.com/tlowdon/status/1334565211148152832

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