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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#551

Post by ska »

titanomachy wrote: post #540
ska wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in theory, something like: Fair academic criticism: We shouldn't publish this paper because it has flaws X,Y,Z. (usually followed by an opportunity for the researchers to address X,Y,Z). Unfair and/or non-academic criticisms: We shouldn't publish this paper because: I don't like the author/authors institution. I don't like this approach, approach X is better. I don't like the conclusions. The last is potenti…

That makes sense, but I don't think of corporate approval committees as being designed to render "fair academic criticism". For example, they might say "the core thesis of this paper reveals our valuable trade secrets and therefore you are forbidden from publishing it externally." That's not fair academic criticism, but it could be a reasonable decision for the committee to make.

Right, as I was trying to convey in the last - there are other corporate interests than research value, and I think all would agree there are situations where they reasonably trump the researchers or public's interest. And vice-versa; "This research shows we have been poisoning the public for 40 years" for most people probably really isn't the same as "This research exposes valuable trade secrets". The lines aren't always obvious.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#552

Post by shuckles »

jsmith45 wrote: post #486
sjs382 wrote: post #397

It's hard to make too much sense about what happened. Here's what I made of it, if anyone can point out any important mistakes/inaccuracies/details: 1. She and her co-authors submitted a paper for review 1 day before its (external, for publication?) due date. It's supposed to be submitted to Google 2 weeks prior, so they can review. 2. The authors submitted it externally before the review was returned. 3. Google deci…

It sounds to me like Google has a policy that papers must be internally reviewed before they can be "published". She understood publish in the academic sense, while Google views sending the paper out for conference review as publishing. The paper ends up failing internal review, so per policy it must be promptly retracted. This is confusing to the academic who expects to get access to the raw review responses so that…

It seems like she has been working at Google for a fair amount of time. If so, I’m surprised that there was still confusion over when a paper needs to be taken through the internal review process. Outside of that, I found this to be a good summary of the situation. It omits her widely distributed email denigrating the entire diversity approach taken by Google, though.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#553

Post by suifbwish »

1024core wrote: post #449

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

It is a big problem that in our current political climate people with those types of built in personal issues float to the top. Gender and race should only be brought up if there is evidence that someone is being discriminated against or harassed based on those traits. I see all kinds of articles immediately pulling race and gender into the equation and it’s dangerous and dishonest because it robs credibility from situations where there is truly discrimination/harassment based on this occurring.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#554

Post by mda »

curiousllama wrote: post #68
colordrops wrote: post #29

I'm very confused by all of this. I've read the tweets and this article and can't make heads or tails of what is going on. What am I missing?

Gebru wrote a research paper and circulated it for feedback. Google managers said "retract the paper because we say so." Gebru responded with "I'd rather resign (and also you suck)." Google "accepted" the resignation (i.e. fired her).

Except that this is not exactly what happened, read the comments at the top.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#555

Post by hardwaregeek »

stevecalifornia wrote: post #519
1024core wrote: post #449

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be…

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person.

Of course social activists may at times cross the line and be unnecessarily rude or abrasive. But I'd have more sympathy because their fundamental job is to be subversive and critical of people.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#556

Post by ZephyrBlu »

anonvenger wrote: post #411
contemporary343 wrote: post #292

It looks like the paper was critical of large language models: https://www.fastcompany.com/90582375/timnit-gebru-google-fir... The original article has been updated with Jeff Dean's response, while a member of Gebru's team (who still works at Google Brain) states that Dean's email is misleading and inaccurate: https://twitter.com/alexhanna/status/1334579764573691904 As I understand it: The paper had already been subm…

From Jeff Dean's email: > Timnit co-authored a paper with four fellow Googlers as well as some external collaborators that needed to go through our review process (as is the case with all externally submitted papers). We’ve approved dozens of papers that Timnit and/or the other Googlers have authored and then published, but as you know, papers often require changes during the internal review process (or are even deem…

That seems pretty damning to me. Especially considering Timnit is not sharing what her demands were.

Google went through their standard process, and the paper was rejected.

If they have actually approved dozens of Timnit's papers before, then the likelihood that this rejection is due to discrimination seems low.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#557

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR »

calf wrote: post #321
webkike wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that for a person who lives in a world where AI shops routinely sell software that discriminate against minorities, not just in ways that are explained by poorly thought out datasets, saying you’re “so tired” is at all wrong. This is the exact research that Timnit is an expert on, and these are systems that have real world consequences for minorities. It’s easy for people who are not minorities to say y…

I bet there is research showing how racism and discrimination literally tires out the people subjected to it. And now you have people saying they're not allowed to express that.

People are just tired of assholes who only blame the world and never take responsibility.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#558

Post by sorenjan »

stanfordalum wrote: post #537
sorenjan wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I read her Wikipedia entry and apparently she has Bachelor's and Master's degrees in electrical engineering from Stanford. Those are probably fairly standardized, so I'll concede that she does have some technical knowledge. I have however seen way to many doctorates that seem technical while they're not. There's a common theme in her career, and it's not necessarily technical knowledge. She worked at Microsoft re…

When I was a grad student at Stanford she was one of the TAs for the main ML class (CS229). I can personally attest that she has solid technical skills and is quite sharp. (I got my PhD in EE at Stanford around the same time)

Ok, I'll take your word for it, I guess I was wrong about the technical skills bit. Looking at her career path I still get the impression that she's more interested in social activism within technical companies than engineering though.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#559

Post by madrox »

Regardless of what happened, it's stuff like this that makes me consider leaving management. Any employee may try to get social media to take their side with any call you've had to make, which is stressful and potentially career-ending. Management is already a thankless job, and managers want to have a 9-5 like anyone else. Moreover, managers are often more bound in what they can and cannot say in public about employee decisions.

I switched from IC to EM because I really love helping grow careers, but if I ever was put in Jeff Dean's position I'd probably quit immediately. No job is worth it.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#560

Post by that_guy_iain »

stevecalifornia wrote: post #519
1024core wrote: post #449

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be…

I read her email and all I could read was her privilege and her entitlement. I think she knows there is racism and sexism in play but thinks everything is about that. The feedback going to HR was probably because they didn’t feel comfortable telling her it direct for fear of reprisals from her.
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