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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#331

Post by robertlagrant »

jeffbee wrote: post #239
tkfu wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but how do you do that? It was easy in classical music; they just started doing auditions behind a curtain, without any verbal Q&A, and suddenly a field that used to be dominated by men became pretty much 50/50, and all the people who said that men were better at the highest echelons of musical achievement had to shut up. But tech companies want to talk to the humans they're hiring, so race and gender are (almost…

There are some fairly easy steps you can take that other, more-diverse organizations have taken. First, you have to get rid of your referral pipeline, because hiring people your employees already know is the opposite of diversity. Second, instead of recruiting from organizations you've already heard of, like Stanford where this person came from, you park a full-time recruiter at institutions with practical diversity,…

> First, you have to get rid of your referral pipeline, because hiring people your employees already know is the opposite of diversity

That's assuming people only know their clones.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#332

Post by inglor_cz »

tkfu wrote: post #149
greatjack613 wrote: post #48

Unrelated, but hiring by race or gender is inherently racist. We should hire by skill alone whether the person is a Lesbian Black Female, or a White Male

Ok, but how do you do that? It was easy in classical music; they just started doing auditions behind a curtain, without any verbal Q&A, and suddenly a field that used to be dominated by men became pretty much 50/50, and all the people who said that men were better at the highest echelons of musical achievement had to shut up. But tech companies want to talk to the humans they're hiring, so race and gender are (almost…

"It was easy in classical music; they just started doing auditions behind a curtain, without any verbal Q&A, and suddenly a field that used to be dominated by men became pretty much 50/50"

Be careful here, the wind has changed and blind auditions are now problematic.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#333

Post by WalterBright »

effingwewt wrote: post #214
idlewords wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is more like giving two weeks' notice and then being asked to leave the building immediately. It's not pleasant but it also isn't the same as being fired. Google called her bluff here.

I think this isn't nearly so bad as forcing an early termination of two weeks notice. I had a job pretty recently, was senior tech and was eager to please, which ended up meaning having to take the hard/after hours calls no one else wanted to handle. It also meant I eventually became the only on-call tech for over 4 months straight. This in turn meant I knew the most about all of our accounts, knew the most about the…

The usual practice is to give 2 weeks notice, you get escorted out immediately, and you get paid for those 2 weeks. It's technically not early termination as you're still getting paid.

There's no reason to be rude, talk down, belittle, however.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#334

Post by calf »

faangeng wrote: post #297

I find it funny how all these commenters have come out of the woodwork to question a highly accomplished and respected AI researcher's track record for their "tone" and the "value" of their research. Unsurprisingly, there's a fixation on railing against SJWs, activism, and political correctness. None of these comments offer any substance on the main issue in focus: the fact that Google may be actively suppressing the…

I find it pretty disturbing that tech has this right-wing streak and not only is it a lack of substance or focus, but an inability to consider the argument from her point of view, thus proving her point about prejudice.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#335

Post by webkike »

calf wrote: post #321
webkike wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that for a person who lives in a world where AI shops routinely sell software that discriminate against minorities, not just in ways that are explained by poorly thought out datasets, saying you’re “so tired” is at all wrong. This is the exact research that Timnit is an expert on, and these are systems that have real world consequences for minorities. It’s easy for people who are not minorities to say y…

I bet there is research showing how racism and discrimination literally tires out the people subjected to it. And now you have people saying they're not allowed to express that.

Indeed. reminds me of this speech by Jacob Blake’s sister: https://youtu.be/Ijp85on6UHY

“I’m not sad. I’m not sorry. I’m angry. And I’m tired”

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#336

Post by gundmc »

itronitron wrote: post #221
high_derivative wrote: post #90

These things seem to play out like clockwork. Progressive companies hire social justice warriors into vague ethics or policy roles, let them hire their activist friends, shower them with fast track careers and promotions. It's good optics, the progressives like it because it makes them feel better about working at big techs. Said hires have thus far, as far as I can tell, not produced anything of substantial value to…

The negative publicity is a result of Google only providing feedback on her research paper, and forcing its retraction, through an HR mediated and anonymized process. That is toxic.

I don't understand this argument. Why do the providers of the feedback need to be unmasked? So they can be disregarded because of their race or gender or "position of privilege"?

From what I can tell, she doesn't seem to address the points raised at all and instead complains they won't tell her exactly who said what.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#337

Post by inglor_cz »

twic wrote: post #135
high_derivative wrote: post #90

These things seem to play out like clockwork. Progressive companies hire social justice warriors into vague ethics or policy roles, let them hire their activist friends, shower them with fast track careers and promotions. It's good optics, the progressives like it because it makes them feel better about working at big techs. Said hires have thus far, as far as I can tell, not produced anything of substantial value to…

Can you really call them toxic and disruptive when they're doing exactly the thing they were told they were hired for? Companies hire activists because they want to look good without actually changing things. Activists go to work for companies because they want to change things. So, naturally, the company has to lie to the activist about their function to do this, and the activist has to be naive about it. If the act…

I think Shakespeare described this by the words "hoisted on his own petard".

In this case, both Google (a social justice activist gets them into a public screaming match, what a surprise) and Ms. Gebru (played chicken with her employer and lost).

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#338

Post by Bukhmanizer »

contemporary343 wrote: post #233
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in research, and citation count, especially of a single paper, is such a dumb metric for evaluating performance. There are about a million reasons that one paper gets cited over another that don’t have to do with quality. Does the same paper get 1000+ citations if it were published in 2010? Or even 2015? Probably not.

It's an original research paper (not review) and it was published in 2018. So yes, 1000 citations at the very least conveys that it was noticed and had an impact. Also, anyone who works in the field of AI fairness and ethics research knows about it. So yeah, it's an important study.

Attention != quality. Especially not the type of quality that keeps one from getting fired after publicly badmouthing ones boss.

As far as I can see, the only way she would keep her job, is if her research was so fundamental to the company that they literally could not function without her. Citations don’t tell you that. My boss is a star researcher in his field with multiple 1000+ citation papers. He still has to act respectfully of his boss and peers.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#339

Post by lawnchair_larry »

contemporary343 wrote: post #292

It looks like the paper was critical of large language models: https://www.fastcompany.com/90582375/timnit-gebru-google-fir... The original article has been updated with Jeff Dean's response, while a member of Gebru's team (who still works at Google Brain) states that Dean's email is misleading and inaccurate: https://twitter.com/alexhanna/status/1334579764573691904 As I understand it: The paper had already been subm…

This Alex Hanna person accusing Dean is certainly not to be taken seriously. I’ll go with Dean over someone with a twitter feed that looks like that. Managing these people must be a nightmare.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#340

Post by roenxi »

chrisbroadfoot wrote: post #293
tinyhouse wrote: post #95

Good for Google. I don't know anything about her, but her debate with Lecun on Twitter was enough for me to know she is toxic. I don't care how good of a researcher she is. The fact they fired her given the current climate shows they actually have balls. I had no idea... I read her email. You know what's crazy about it? she is talking about Google silencing marginalized voices. She keeps referring to herself as a mar…

What about that thread shows she's toxic?

I know you are referring to 'that thread', but in this email (from the article) she said:

"So if you would like to change things, I suggest focusing on leadership accountability and thinking through what types of pressures can also be applied from the outside. For instance, I believe that the Congressional Black Caucus..."

Skipping parts of the chain of command to deal with grievances is usually a toxic behaviour. Trying to skip the entire corporation and going straight to the government counts too, IMO. This woman has opportunities, abilities and successes that most of us can only dream of and she's using that to try and make Google a vehicle for political goals not quite articulated here (this email is obviously not written for public consumption, it is light on specific details apart from her thinking there are insufficient women hired). I can see the complaint against her, she's already got an advantage in life and now she's using her access at Google to try and strengthen her hand and weaken that of her coworkers.

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