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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#201

Post by notsureaboutpg »

dmix wrote: post #143
high_derivative wrote: post #90

These things seem to play out like clockwork. Progressive companies hire social justice warriors into vague ethics or policy roles, let them hire their activist friends, shower them with fast track careers and promotions. It's good optics, the progressives like it because it makes them feel better about working at big techs. Said hires have thus far, as far as I can tell, not produced anything of substantial value to…

It really is the same story every time, isn't it? They always flame out of the company with some over complicated victim story because the company had the nerve to not 100% buy in to their non-optional radical demands. It has become an archetype at this point.

Yep "Google is going after black women" except she said "Please comply with several demands or I'll work on an exit date from this company"

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#202

Post by thrwe234324 »

tinyhouse wrote: post #95

Good for Google. I don't know anything about her, but her debate with Lecun on Twitter was enough for me to know she is toxic. I don't care how good of a researcher she is. The fact they fired her given the current climate shows they actually have balls. I had no idea... I read her email. You know what's crazy about it? she is talking about Google silencing marginalized voices. She keeps referring to herself as a mar…

Serves Google right.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#203

Post by uoaei »

aparsons wrote: post #75
chunkyks wrote: post #11

Being fired for this sort of thing sucks. This also sounds like an opportunity for an awesome person to spread their wings now they're out from under what sounds like a pretty oppressive system

She claims to be a leading researcher in the field, but has she written any significant papers or research of note? Her biggest accomplishment seems to be driving Yann LeCunn off Twitter with angry accusations. She tried to continue her power trip at a workplace but her boss called her bluff. This is a great firing for Google. She won’t be missed.

Your comment betrays your inherent bias, and frankly, it is not a good look.

Everything you've said here is not only falsifiable, but straight up false.

It appears you didn't even try to challenge your own beliefs before spraying them out into the public sphere. You aren't representing yourself in a decent light.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#204

Post by matthewdgreen »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #81
prionassembly wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tone of her replies is regrettable: Yann: “ML systems are biased when data is biased" Timnit: “I’m sick of this framing. Tired of it. Many people have tried to explain, many scholars. Listen to us. You can’t just reduce harms caused by ML to dataset bias. Even amidst of world wide protests people don’t hear our voices and try to learn from us, they assume they’re experts in everything. Let us lead her and you fol…

I find it strange to take issue with the "I'm so tired" line. It would seem to be entirely appropriate for circumstances where you see an argument that you have replied to many times but that completely ignores your reply. It also just doesn't strike me as particularly hostile or profane. Quitting twitter and making a show of it strikes me as a far more emotional reaction, but nobody here seems to take any issue with…

This post is a really good explanation, and I wish it had been in that Twitter thread.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#205

Post by IvyMike »

davorak wrote: post #172
parliament32 wrote: post #26

I don't think "fired" is the right choice of words -- she gave an ultimatum offering to resign, and they accepted her resignation. Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? > Thanks for making your conditions clear. We cannot agree to #1 and #2 as you are requesting. We respect your decision to leave Google as a result, and we are accepting your resignation. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364…

Having conditions is often part of a negotiation. Maybe they offered to resign in that email, but Timnit Gebru does not say she did in the linked twitter as far as I can tell. Unless she formally offer to resign it seems like her management jumped the gun.

From this tweet: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334343577044979712

> I said here are the conditions. If you can meet them great I’ll take my name off this paper, if not then I can work on a last date.

To employers, that qualifies as a conditional resignation.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#206

Post by zemo »

high_derivative wrote: post #90

These things seem to play out like clockwork. Progressive companies hire social justice warriors into vague ethics or policy roles, let them hire their activist friends, shower them with fast track careers and promotions. It's good optics, the progressives like it because it makes them feel better about working at big techs. Said hires have thus far, as far as I can tell, not produced anything of substantial value to…

https://twitter.com/math_rachel/status/1163637485533929473

her research has been cited in multiple lawsuits and piece of legislation. It is clear from the tone of your comment that you like technology because technology is power, and your interest is not in seeing technology used to create a better future for all mankind, but to instead reach the top of existing structures of power and to dominate others.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#207

Post by mcguire »

curiousllama wrote: post #68
colordrops wrote: post #29

I'm very confused by all of this. I've read the tweets and this article and can't make heads or tails of what is going on. What am I missing?

Gebru wrote a research paper and circulated it for feedback. Google managers said "retract the paper because we say so." Gebru responded with "I'd rather resign (and also you suck)." Google "accepted" the resignation (i.e. fired her).

"I said here are the conditions. If you can meet them great I’ll take my name off this paper, if not then I can work on a last date. Then she sent an email to my direct reports saying she has accepted my resignation. So that is google for you folks. You saw it happen right here."

And I've lost the link to the tweet.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#208

Post by igor47 »

wil421 wrote: post #128
sudosysgen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, reading the thread, it's pretty clear that she was correct. There is a second step of metaoptimization which incentives the researchers to encode algorithms to produce algorithms that more easily bias along a certain way. And she is correct that benchmarking models against biased datasets can lead researchers to bias for architectures that are in turn more likely to have a certain bias. I'm sure LeCun knows thi…

TBH it doesn’t matter if she is right or wrong. Her tone and angry writing is pretty harsh. The Twitter replies read a lot like her Google message thing. She’s got a lot of good things to say but needs to work on the delivery. I think she’s playing the victim and race card a lot more than she should. She’s got all the ammo she needs to make her arguments without the angry victim tone.

Have you considered that there are many other people with the same thing to say, who are saying it with the respectful tone you demand, and are being just as politely and quietly ignored?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#209

Post by PeterisP »

contemporary343 wrote: post #118
high_derivative wrote: post #90

These things seem to play out like clockwork. Progressive companies hire social justice warriors into vague ethics or policy roles, let them hire their activist friends, shower them with fast track careers and promotions. It's good optics, the progressives like it because it makes them feel better about working at big techs. Said hires have thus far, as far as I can tell, not produced anything of substantial value to…

Her research work is well-known and has had an impact, whether you like it or not: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Timnit+gebru Edit: And to be clear, her most cited paper (> 1000 citations) had an impact on what some companies did: https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/8/21284683/ibm-no-longer-gen... What is disturbing here, from a researcher's point of view (even within a company!), is the lack of transparency on wh…

It seems plausible that a key result of her research (likely including the unnamed paper which she was asked to retract) is driving change in policy and social opinion that is apparently considered harmful to Google, so the research does not add value to Google, it benefits others (e.g. particular underprivileged groups) but just imposes extra restrictions and costs to her employer.

Industry research is not academia, where you'd expect to be free to choose the avenues of your research, and you should expect that publication is restricted. The technical improvements you make may be kept under wraps to gain a competitive advantage; and policy agenda work is essentally part of PR strategy, it's accepted if and only if that agenda benefits the strategic interests of the company. Tenure in academia offers some freedom of research (though not even then abolute), but when working for private companies, you don't have that freedom unless you have a specific contract asserting that, and even then you'd be wary of biting the hand that feeds you.

Like, if you want to expose climate change risks, it's not going to work out while employed in an oil company, and if you want to advocate for regulation of ML research while working in a company that would be bound by this regulation, this is certainly something that the management would be expected to care about.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#210

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

tgv wrote: post #58
prionassembly wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tone of her replies is regrettable: Yann: “ML systems are biased when data is biased" Timnit: “I’m sick of this framing. Tired of it. Many people have tried to explain, many scholars. Listen to us. You can’t just reduce harms caused by ML to dataset bias. Even amidst of world wide protests people don’t hear our voices and try to learn from us, they assume they’re experts in everything. Let us lead her and you fol…

But isn't it commonly accepted that ML systems reflect the bias in the data, and that it's hard to predict and control the bias in advance?

It's "commonly accepted" in that it is a well-known possibility and, therefore, something that practitioners should check for before publishing, using, or selling their models, yes.

It's not "commonly accepted" in the sense of throwing one's hands up, saying "there's just no way we could find enough pictures of black people for our AI to no longer confuse them with Apes" and move on.

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