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Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

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Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#701

Post by kthejoker2 »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #446
ChuckMcM wrote: post #191

True story, a person I know who was offered a job at Google got the employment agreement (prior to arriving which was pretty standard at the time) and read that bit about "allowing Google to protect it's IP by installing a rootkit" and they red lined it to change it "May only access Google related information and no personal information." When they showed up HR started with "But that isn't how we use it, we would nev…

Google is the expert at scaling, and that probably applies to hiring as well. If someone takes too long to get through onboarding, kicking them out is preferable to allowing it to disrupt onboarding other engineers. Would you waste time trying to debug an oddly broken kubernetes node, or just drop it and bring up a new one?

Exactly, they want cattle, not pets.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#702

Post by astura »

DrHydeous wrote: post #679
astura wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What good is that if you're an "at-will" employee? They can just change the rules at any time for any reason and fire you if you don't agree to them. I have enough experience to know absolutely nothing about me employer is guaranteed/permanent in the US. Relevant story for the HN crowd: I worked for a small company (~250 employees). Real chill place. Six months after I start they were suddenly bought out by a huge mu…

I would assume that if they do decide to "change the rules" then the penalty clauses in the contract kick in, such as payment in lieu of notice. Jesusland does actually enforce contracts, right?

> the penalty clauses in the contract kick in, such as payment in lieu of notice

Penalty clauses in a non-union job in the US!??? How on earth does one get such a clause?

I've had five software jobs and four non-skilled jobs and never seen anything even approaching this sort of clause in an employment agreement, or heard of anyone ever having this sort of clause in their employment agreement, unless you're talking about like CEOs.

The only employment agreements and/or offer letters I've ever seen (from both myself and my spouse) were more-or-less "here's your starting salary and you are employed at will." In fact, the last offer letter I signed literally said something along the lines of "this offer letter is not an employment contract or a guarantee of continued employment."

I'd love to see/read these mythical supposedly "contracts" sometime to see the exact verbage. I very seriously doubt that one just gets to walk away with a big payday just because their employee changed the benefits plan. Not in the US.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#703

Post by colejohnson66 »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #573
colejohnson66 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This far into the thread, it changed to justifying two phones for reasons of possible deposition. I was explaining why it’s a good idea to do that.

That doesn't make sense. They can request both of your phones just as easily as they can request access to your personal profile on an Android phone.

The idea is based on the idea (heh) that warrants must be tailored to the crime. I can’t get a warrant for your dining room then go upstairs into your bedroom to explore. Now, if a cop saw, say, drug paraphernalia in the kitchen while looking for something else, that’s fine, but they can’t go on random searches (also why they can’t search your car for no reason).

That idea extended to civil procedure and phones is that the discovery process for a civil case would be for things related to the lawsuit of which your personal phone might not be. They could certainly request it, but a good lawyer would argue that your personal phone has no connection to the work phone (of which the lawsuit is about) as evidenced by the fact that you have two phones (you intend to separate the two matters). Separate profiles on the same computer (phone) would be harder to argue.

It’s not a clear cut matter and would certainly depend on how the judge is feeling, but if there’s a possibility of keeping your personal and work life separate, why not do so? Don’t put all your eggs (data) in one basket (phone) and the like.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#704

Post by astura »

nmfisher wrote: post #655
astura wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What good is that if you're an "at-will" employee? They can just change the rules at any time for any reason and fire you if you don't agree to them. I have enough experience to know absolutely nothing about me employer is guaranteed/permanent in the US. Relevant story for the HN crowd: I worked for a small company (~250 employees). Real chill place. Six months after I start they were suddenly bought out by a huge mu…

I mean, I completely agree with you. As a non-American, the concept of "at-will" employment is utterly bizarre to me. But, as a matter of practicality, it's less likely that, after you've signed your contract, Google comes to you on your first day and says "I'm altering the terms of our deal, pray I don't alter it further". This is all mostly about managing unexpected risks, and my point is that it's actually pretty…

>But, as a matter of practicality, it's less likely that, after you've signed your contract, Google comes to you on your first day and says "I'm altering the terms of our deal, pray I don't alter it further".

It's been my experience that benefits change very regularly, sometimes significantly. For example, my current employer updates their compensation plan every year at the very least.

It's been my experience whenever the company I worked for ends up in a position where they are financially strapped benefits and work conditions change suddenly, drastically, and very frequently.

If you don't work for a big company (or even if you do) there is a good chance where you work will be acquired if you work somewhere long enough and that changes everything. I know some people I used to work with who experienced 4 acquisitions at the same job.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#705

Post by Karunamon »

bonoboTP wrote: post #683
Karunamon wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put bluntly, being a PITA when it wasn't at all necessary, as corp-issued devices are common. If I were a manager hiring this guy and heard that he kicked back the standard contract everyone else has for a pointless reason that had a workaround everyone already knows about, I'd have ended it right there because it casts their judgment in a poor light and I could see them causing me or my department issues in the futu…

This is not an answer to the above thread.

"What do you mean by professional here?", the answer to which is "not being a PITA for no reason". Seems pretty direct to me.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#706

Post by ma2rten »

theptip wrote: post #413

I'm confused, what exactly is the allegation of illegal spying? The article just says: > Google violated US labor laws by spying on workers who were organizing employee protests, then firing two of them, according to a complaint to be filed by the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) today. And then talks about the circumstances around the firing of those employees. > “This week the NLRB issued a complaint on my beh…

One of those people was fired for looking at someone's calendar.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#707

Post by AshWolfy »

renewiltord wrote: post #664
AshWolfy wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobs are a fact of life, you can either live in denial, or you can try and make things better

Well, right now all tech worker organization is crappy right now. The mob dissipates its energy in online rage about whiteboard interviews and hatred of foreigners. That kind of mob I like. Oderunt et metuunt, as one might most hope for. And they are powerless in their rage. With sufficient work they can be kept like that. Either at peace or powerlessly angry.

Maybe so, but the mob im organizing with is groups like no tech for ice which have stopped companies from contracting with ICE. Or the kickstarter union which secured good terms for workers laid off during covid

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#708

Post by sudosysgen »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #639
sudosysgen wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you actually want to be effective, the solution is to fix the union, not to engage in completely inoffensive tactics. I don't doubt that a great many unions are horrible. For a great many reasons, unions are often, but not always, structured horribly with badly mismatched incentives, almost no democracy, and poor accountability. There are reasons for this, that can and have been addressed. You're simply never goin…

> If you actually want to be effective, the solution is to fix the union, not to engage in completely inoffensive tactics. This made me laugh. If you have to fix the union, then really all you've done is worsen your situation. "And now you have two problems."

Sometimes, when you want to fix a problem, you have to fix another problem before. It sucks but it's life. Thankfully, one of those is much easier than the other.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#709

Post by AshWolfy »

renewiltord wrote: post #657
AshWolfy wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about unions like the UFW which were among the greatest champions of immigrant rights in the US. The accepted line in unions these days is anti immigration efforts divide workers

That's right. These days. Could change again. But they could demonstrate immutable faith by adopting a clause like what I mention here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25284296 If they are pro immigrant it shouldn't be much of a problem.

Well you could get involved in the labor movement to make sure that doesnt happen, after all unions are democratic.

Unions turning against immigration is very unlikely, even relatively conservative unions like the teamsters are on board now

today being pro immigration is being pro union and being anti immigration is being anti union

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#710

Post by daniel-cussen »

bigiain wrote: post #386
throwaway667555 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd agree if this redline didn't require several departments to sign off costing $x million. Internal developers, internal security ops, legal, and C-suite coordinating these departments. Also Google is very special in that their employees are extremely sophisticated and curious, so they need ~complete~ control of any electronics that access their networks.

So if your first paragraph is correct, what are we to make of the HR person saying "But that isn't how we use it, we would never access your personal data."? Were they lying? Or was there a real internal rule about "never" accessing personal data? A rule that was in disagreement with the $x million worth of coordinations of legal documentation? And if your second paragraph is correct, then "Google HR lies to you on y…

If they make verbal assurances that they'll do nothing bad, perhaps they'd be willing to write them down on the contract.
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