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Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

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Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#691

Post by croon »

GoblinSlayer wrote: post #648
ACow_Adonis wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if it's worth anything, I'm NOT in the US, and I generally take the position that I don't even have a job until everything is signed (that is to say, sent to me, reviewed, signed, sent back and receipt acknowledged). That action would include resettlement compensation if inclusive, or at the very least I wouldn't consider seriously starting the mechanisation of moving cities until that point. I'm pretty taken aback t…

It's the same slave contract everywhere, what's the difference when you sign it?

1) You're claiming it's the same contract everywhere, which is not true, so your second point is moot.

2) Even if it was true, the when would change it. If more people can preemptively compare contracts, the more they would change for the better.

I'd rather pick out a life jacket that fits me before I jump in the water, rather than whatever one is reachable when I'm already there.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#692

Post by geofft »

dleslie wrote: post #611
sudosysgen wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't kid yourself. Your employer will always be better connected and more influential politically than you, unless you organize. You'll be fired for donating to that PAC if it's actually becoming controversial and effective. Fortunately, unions have the same status in campaign contribution laws as PACs, so your best bet to do some lobbying as a worker is to join a union and use it as a PAC.

I watched my parents suffer throughout their careers because their Unions were politically toxic and also deigned it necessary to keep their wages below market in order to apply pressure on the employer to raise the wages of others in the bargaining unit. As though a lineman and a telecontrol technologist are similarly skilled and trained. My father spent the better part of a decade trying to hire his replacement bec…

It seems to me you've also taken the concrete action of only working for small/indie companies where the relative power between a single employee and the employer is much greater than at a place like Google. I think that's also an entirely reasonable action, and if everyone did that, many of these problems would go away.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#693

Post by madeofpalk »

mleonhard wrote: post #638
danShumway wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When they showed up HR started with "But that isn't how we use it, we would never access your personal data." So, what, was HR lying? More to the point, Google shouldn't be putting critical business information on personal devices, that's a security risk. If they're that worried about it, they should be issuing every employee a separate phone. "We don't trust you enough to have your own device without a rootkit, bu…

Google Security has a list of supported devices & OS versions that can run their rootkit. Google corporate accounts cannot sign in on other devices. When a device gets too old and rolls off the supported list, they automatically log it out and wipe any company data on it. I believe most large companies operate like this. Google is actually more flexible than most companies: Any employee can get a company phone and em…

Why do people need company stuff on their phone anyway?

I very purposefully avoid any work email or slack or apps on my personal device.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#694

Post by ClumsyPilot »

youeseh wrote: post #253
willcipriano wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea how those contracts are enforceable. Quit your job, move across the country and then on your first day here are nine contracts to sign, no you can't take them home we need them now. If you don't sign you are unemployed and we want that relocation money back. I used to ask potential employers when I got deep into interviews with them. "Is there any way I can see all the contracts I would need to sign on…

I'm guessing that you've only worked at / interviewed at large firms. They're large and your prospective role there wasn't senior enough for them to afford you special treatment.

Surely a contract can't be valid if one of the parties hasn't had a chance to read it.

It's like if you bought a car, signed and paid, and discovered there is an extra agreement to actually use it, and that one says any ideas you have while driving belong to BMW.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#695

Post by goatinaboat »

black_puppydog wrote: post #262

The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions? The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual n…

we will either realize and act on the fact that we are now for the most part a skilled labor like any other, or we will see our precious privileges erode and our incomes and work conditions deteriorate

HN is largely blind to this but outside of a few hotspots like SV programming is just another white collar office job, with pay and conditions not really any better than any other white collar office job. And it will go the same way in SV too eventually. The time to act is when the ball is in your court, not when it’s too late.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#696

Post by GoblinSlayer »

mleonhard wrote: post #436
jefftk wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't required to have any phone. If you have a phone and want it to have access to corp resources, you need to agree to some conditions. I have coworkers who choose to keep their phone personal only, and others who choose to have the company pay for them to have a separate work phone. (Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself)

I did that. I had a company laptop and phone. I usually left them at the office. For extra privacy, I stopped my personal phone from connecting to the company WiFi. Then Google bought my home ISP (WebPass). Now I use a router-based VPN.

Isn't laptop enough? What the phone does?

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#697

Post by UncleMeat »

dleslie wrote: post #611
sudosysgen wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't kid yourself. Your employer will always be better connected and more influential politically than you, unless you organize. You'll be fired for donating to that PAC if it's actually becoming controversial and effective. Fortunately, unions have the same status in campaign contribution laws as PACs, so your best bet to do some lobbying as a worker is to join a union and use it as a PAC.

I watched my parents suffer throughout their careers because their Unions were politically toxic and also deigned it necessary to keep their wages below market in order to apply pressure on the employer to raise the wages of others in the bargaining unit. As though a lineman and a telecontrol technologist are similarly skilled and trained. My father spent the better part of a decade trying to hire his replacement bec…

Unions are democratically controlled. With extremely high probability, some of them will be mismanaged and abusive. We see the same in democratic government. But we don't tend to then say "wow, that elected leader was terrible - better replace it all with philosopher kings". Unionization at least gives workers the chance to influence the business, even if that chance can be squandered.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#698

Post by goatinaboat »

ahelwer wrote: post #516
colinmhayes wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how salaries work. Microsoft would just say no. Are microsoft employees really willing to strike? Seems unimaginable to me at their salaries.

There are a lot of tools in a union's negotiation toolkit. A full-union work stoppage is the most extreme, rarely deployed. Other measures include rolling work stoppages, delaying response to manager emails, not attending meetings with management, not answering non-customer-impacting on-call pages during certain hours (I'm sure support would be widespread for this one in particular lol) - you can come up with more id…

There are a lot of tools in a union's negotiation toolkit.

When the French train drivers go on strike they continue to run the normal service but simply don’t collect fares. Hurts management but keeps the ordinary people on their side.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#699

Post by UncleMeat »

ehsankia wrote: post #414
caconym_ wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those high salaries aren't the result of individual negotiations, though. FAANMG+ companies pay very well, but salaries for the vast majority of engineers are determined by black box formulas, and in cases where blocs of employees think there's something unfair about their compensation (for instance, people in one location being paid more than people in another) there's absolutely nothing they can do about it. The sc…

Is it really a black box though? The majority of these companies have spreadsheets where people share their salaries, and from what I've seen, it's a fairly basic formula based on 3 factors: Level, rating and location. Yes, there's maybe a few % of wiggle in there, but generally it's fairly consistent from what I've seen. You could argue that the way you get a rating, or even the way you get promoted are a black box,…

The point is that you have exactly zero say in it. The comp team spits out a number using a formula that changes year over year, then your manager has a little bit of wiggle room to allocate to high performers, and then you get your number. With zero advance warning they can absolutely just say "sorry, your performance review ratings are now worth 50% of what they were last year" and there is nothing you can do about it.

With a union it'd be possible to ensure that the comp formulas are made public ahead of time and that nontrivial changes to the formulas are reviewed by the union.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#700

Post by UncleMeat »

leftyted wrote: post #453
r0p3 wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having "lefty" in your name with such a poor understanding of labor exploitation is funny.

Working at Google while complaining about "labor exploitation" is like being a rich white kid in a Che shirt

It is certainly the case that tech workers are not exploited in the same manner as 19th century factory workers. But that doesn't mean people shouldn't seek even better conditions. Google made 34B in net income in 2019. That's like $340,000 per employee. Clearly it would be possible for the workers to capture even more of the value that they create.
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