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Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

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Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#641

Post by fogetti »

millirem wrote: post #624
rablackburn wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still remember the furore it caused when I asked for a copy of the 業務規則. (because the new overtime pay policy was paying ~$3/hr worked after 10pm and I wanted to see the section that covered that calculation) I just wanted to read the actual language around hours worked and overtime because it was never stated what the policy was. Turns out you couldn’t read it without a director sitting next to you, and it was in…

That's funny. The law in Japan stipulates that a copy of the 業務規則 needs to be in a place easily accessible to employees.

This discussion doesn't revolve around how things should be but how it is in the real world.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#642

Post by machinelabo »

est31 wrote: post #634
machinelabo wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't give your phone to Google. Don't use personal phone for work. Ask them for a phone if they want you to use it. Why is this difficult? Why complain about something that is 100% in your control? Employer that has thousands of employees don't have the time to amend contracts on per employee basis. Seems fair to me. Google has HIPA-level access for personal data, even some medical data about people, security i…

IDK the legal details of the contract, but Google has root level access to all Android phones with gapps installed. It's definitely possible for them to figure out which phone you use privately and rootkit it.

This is an extremely broad claim, do you have anything to back that up with?

Saying that Google would snoop your personal phone (which doesn't have your Google work account) as a Google employee needs some hard facts to back that up.

Since you don't know the legal details of the contract, how about we stop speculating conspiracy theories? Please keep the discussion factual and reasonable.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#643

Post by mleonhard »

astrange wrote: post #635
mleonhard wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did that. I had a company laptop and phone. I usually left them at the office. For extra privacy, I stopped my personal phone from connecting to the company WiFi. Then Google bought my home ISP (WebPass). Now I use a router-based VPN.

> For extra privacy, I stopped my personal phone from connecting to the company WiFi. In a large enough campus, wouldn't the company also operate the cell tower? (I feel like I should know this, but I don't.) > Now I use a router-based VPN. This is not really useful except as a way to make your internet really slow. VPN providers are a lot less trustworthy than ISPs, that's why they can afford all those podcast ads.

I use a VPN provider [0] located in my state. They claim not to spy and I believe them. My state (California) which has some privacy laws and consumer protection functions which would make things very difficult for the VPN provider if they were caught spying. I picked this VPN provider because they finance WireGuard development.

AT&T, Verizon, and other ISPs spy and sell the data they collect. They also spend large amounts of money influencing lawmakers to keep spying allowed.

[0] https://www.privateinternetaccess.com

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#644

Post by est31 »

machinelabo wrote: post #642
est31 wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK the legal details of the contract, but Google has root level access to all Android phones with gapps installed. It's definitely possible for them to figure out which phone you use privately and rootkit it.

This is an extremely broad claim, do you have anything to back that up with? Saying that Google would snoop your personal phone (which doesn't have your Google work account) as a Google employee needs some hard facts to back that up. Since you don't know the legal details of the contract, how about we stop speculating conspiracy theories? Please keep the discussion factual and reasonable.

> This is an extremely broad claim, do you have anything to back that up with?

My claim is that it's possible for them, not that they are necessarily doing it. The technology is there.

My advice is: if you have any sort of fight with any big tech corp that gets the high levels involved, stay away from their products as far as you can.

Microsoft at least has spied on a private account's data to resolve some IP theft. https://thehackernews.com/2014/03/microsoft-admits-spying-on...

Another prior art: it's well documented that nation states do such stuff all the time. Group of diplomats from country A visits country B to discuss a big treaty with them. They stay over at the Hotel and discuss their strategy. The Hotel is bugged so country B gets an advantage during the negotiations.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#645

Post by gwenzek »

austhrow743 wrote: post #554
brundolf wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of whether or not IT professionals should be worried about their salaries, labor power isn't just about compensation. Unions could negotiate for better parental leave (which is still atrocious throughout the US, even in relatively cushy jobs). Unions could empower tech workers to actually push back on unethical policies and projects, as opposed to right now where they get to make a statement and then nothi…

Parental leave is part of compensation. It's just extra cash but with strings attached. Things like parental leave are exactly why some people don't like collective bargaining. It means you get stuck being compensated with something you're not going to use instead of cash.

Parental leave is about more than just money. It's about to leave your work for 3-4 months in a row. Employers tend to hand out cash rather than time away.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#646

Post by justusw »

millirem wrote: post #624
rablackburn wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still remember the furore it caused when I asked for a copy of the 業務規則. (because the new overtime pay policy was paying ~$3/hr worked after 10pm and I wanted to see the section that covered that calculation) I just wanted to read the actual language around hours worked and overtime because it was never stated what the policy was. Turns out you couldn’t read it without a director sitting next to you, and it was in…

That's funny. The law in Japan stipulates that a copy of the 業務規則 needs to be in a place easily accessible to employees.

Employees, but not future employees :(

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#647

Post by throwingaway0 »

fogetti wrote: post #584
rablackburn wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still remember the furore it caused when I asked for a copy of the 業務規則. (because the new overtime pay policy was paying ~$3/hr worked after 10pm and I wanted to see the section that covered that calculation) I just wanted to read the actual language around hours worked and overtime because it was never stated what the policy was. Turns out you couldn’t read it without a director sitting next to you, and it was in…

I feel for you. I also had my fair share of labor rights abuse in Japan. My experience is that only foreigners are 'brave' enough to ever bring this up, which makes the whole situation even more miserable since you cannot expect any help from Japanese colleagues.

Like what?

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#648

Post by GoblinSlayer »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #532
cj wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right, I’ve only had a few jobs in my life. But I have hired dozens of people - everyone I’ve hired received their contracts the same day they receive an offer. Very surprised this isn’t common practice.

if it's worth anything, I'm NOT in the US, and I generally take the position that I don't even have a job until everything is signed (that is to say, sent to me, reviewed, signed, sent back and receipt acknowledged). That action would include resettlement compensation if inclusive, or at the very least I wouldn't consider seriously starting the mechanisation of moving cities until that point. I'm pretty taken aback t…

It's the same slave contract everywhere, what's the difference when you sign it?

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#649

Post by soup10 »

nmfisher wrote: post #614
phendrenad2 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is the expert at scaling, and that probably applies to hiring as well. If someone takes too long to get through onboarding, kicking them out is preferable to allowing it to disrupt onboarding other engineers. Would you waste time trying to debug an oddly broken kubernetes node, or just drop it and bring up a new one?

This is probably the most overlooked comment here. I'm guessing that Google just DGAF about any individual employee. They're not short of candidates, so why waste even a tiny amount of time customizing their contract terms when they can just revoke it and move to the next in line.

That's not actually what happened, Google, much like any company wants to hire people that are "good team players" "will be loyal to the company", "don't cause trouble", and "show gratitude for the opportunity given to them". So either you play the game or you have enough leverage to get special treatment(or you work somewhere else). They want good corporate drones, not individualists that protest when privacy rights are signed away.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#650

Post by KvanteKat »

missedthecue wrote: post #623
thraway12 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't Google party to an implicit CARTEL agreement not to compete amongst hiring tech talent? https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage...

I don't understand why this is wrong but labor unions are encouraged. If the sellers of labor can cartelize to maximize income, why shouldn't the buyers of labor be able to cartelize to minimize expenses? There is no logically consistent excuse. Better yet, why isn't all cartelization prohibited?

I mean, isn't that (one of) the point(s) of the corporation as a legal entity: to allow people with capital assets and a joint enterprise in mind to coordinate their resources and act as a single entity for the purposes of pursuing that enterprise [edit: which of course includes purchasing labor in all but the smallest undertakings]. One of the original motivating theories behind the drive for labor unions organized within companies (rather than earlier forms of labor organization like guilds and professional societies which predate modern economies) was that the unification of capital interests within a company necessitated that labor similarly unify, since the alternative would be that the individual seller of labour would lack any kind of bargaining power when negotiating with their employer.

Unless we abolish corporations as a concept, how exactly do you effectively propose that we "outlaw all cartelization" in a way that isn't just outlawing unions while keeping capital interests unified?

tl;dr: unions complement the inherrent concentration of capital interests in modern ecconomies and are no more inherently like cartels than the corporate form itself.

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