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Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

reuters.com

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Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#151

Post by greeneggs »

jimbob45 wrote: post #6
ogre_codes wrote: post #2

In a weird way, having the Max grounded during 2020 turned out to be lucky timing on Boeing's part. The airlines slowdown due to COVID likely gave them some serious breathing room while they got their shit together. Now hopefully they actually did get their shit together.

I think I disagree. If they’d taken the time to scrap the 737 Max and move to a new design, they’d have had the time and the public would have eaten the new product up. Instead, they doubled down and are now going to try to have to sell a product that many will refuse to ever fly on, myself included.

Given Boeing's recent problems, I would be much happier on an old design that has been well tested, than on a brand-new design.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#152

Post by robjan »

kerng wrote: post #119

Curious, I never want to fly in one of these. How can one achieve that in a realistic way? Let's say airline changes plane after I booked, then I wouldnt get a refund. Is there a solution to this?

The only way is to book on an airline who doesn't have the MAX, doesn't have them on order and has no history of wetleasing. Alternatively you can fly only on routes where the MAX is unsuitable i.e. longhaul.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#153

Post by landemva »

greeneggs wrote: post #151
jimbob45 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I disagree. If they’d taken the time to scrap the 737 Max and move to a new design, they’d have had the time and the public would have eaten the new product up. Instead, they doubled down and are now going to try to have to sell a product that many will refuse to ever fly on, myself included.

Given Boeing's recent problems, I would be much happier on an old design that has been well tested, than on a brand-new design.

They crammed big engines under the wings in a way that it could really need a new air type certification. This is more like a new plane, with the baggage of the old 737 and without the certification testing for a new plane. Yes it can fly, but it's pushing the boundaries of safety.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#154

Post by ipnon »

Havoc wrote: post #87

Don’t care. Show me real movement on the corporate mindset. The plane is a STEM engineer fixable issue. The corporate mess that pushed this across flying clearance is not. I’ll aim to fly airbus until Boeing understands that difference and fixes the root cause.

Airbus aircraft are generally smoother and quieter rides in my experience.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#155

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

pengaru wrote: post #146
ogre_codes wrote: post #2

In a weird way, having the Max grounded during 2020 turned out to be lucky timing on Boeing's part. The airlines slowdown due to COVID likely gave them some serious breathing room while they got their shit together. Now hopefully they actually did get their shit together.

COVID has been a godsend to many struggling or otherwise unstable businesses. Recent example I've had to deal with: Morgan Stanley's acquisition of E-Trade has completely wrecked their customer service experience. Live chat wait times are 2+ hours, getting a secure message response takes 5 days now. Their web site is covered with COVID-19 disclaimers for all the trouble, with a minor blurb about "operational shift".…

COVID is the new 9/11.

You could blame anything on 9/11... "Wifi is down, due to 9/11"

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#156

Post by Stierlitz »

HPsquared wrote: post #74
Analemma_ wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original 737 wasn't broken-by-design in the way the Max is. The Max _requires_ software kludges to paper over its deliberate mistakes; that's very different from just having a few bugs to work out in a fundamentally sound design.

This is a bit of an urban myth that keeps flying around. The plane is perfectly stable without MCAS, but would have had different handling characteristics than the previous version. The purpose of MCAS was to modify the handling to match the previous plane, so pilots' type ratings would carry over with minimal retraining. At its heart, it was a (poorly implemented) kludge in an attempt to sidestep a lot of paperwork.

Boeing PR must be out in force.

@HPsquared “.. The plane is perfectly stable without MCAS ..”

NO, no, no it isn't .. doesn't matter how many different ways you re-arrange the word salad. MCAS is a software kludge to compensate for an unstable airframe

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#157

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

p1mrx wrote: post #88

Why do these articles say so little about how Boeing fixed the problem? People are more likely to fly on these if they know what's different from the ones that crashed.

Because they didn't fix the problem. Shit can still hit the fan with one AoA indicator down and MCAS disabled. Think about how flawed these sensors have to be to fail mere months after coming off the assembly line. 737 MAX is only safe if there is triple redundancy on the sensors to confirm which of the two remaining sensors are in agreement.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#158

Post by Stierlitz »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #98
HPsquared wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit of an urban myth that keeps flying around. The plane is perfectly stable without MCAS, but would have had different handling characteristics than the previous version. The purpose of MCAS was to modify the handling to match the previous plane, so pilots' type ratings would carry over with minimal retraining. At its heart, it was a (poorly implemented) kludge in an attempt to sidestep a lot of paperwork.

You're mostly right, but it wasn't just to make it handle like the previous versions, it was to satisfy FAA certification rules on how it handled.

@throwaway201103: “You're mostly right, but it wasn't just to make it handle like the previous versions, it was to satisfy FAA certification rules on how it handled.”

And also to stop the plane dropping out of the sky!

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#159

Post by topspin »

0xy wrote: post #79
DevX101 wrote: post #7

I recently had the frivolous idea of creating a flight search engine for flights that DID NOT use the 737 Max. Any actual interest in this?

This seems utterly counter-productive, considering the Max is now the most scrutinized plane in history. It's probably far safer now than other models.

> It's probably far safer now than other models.

All 737 have an obsolescent fuselage design. It could not be certified given modern regulation and relies on being grandfathered for new production. The consequence is the fuselage can shatter on crash landings or runway overruns whereas more modern designs will hold together and protect passengers.

The relatively minor training, hardware and software revisions of 737 MAX do not make it safer than other models. Reading the FAA documents one learns there is little interest in pursuing more fundamental problems.

For instance, the trim wheel control force issue has been officially handwaved. This means your 737 pilot may need to be an athlete in the midst of dealing with failed systems and reading flight manuals. Modern designs have flight proven fly-by-wire systems and don't involve wrestling with crazy naval vessel-like mechanical wheels to control pitch.

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