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Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

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Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, my son drives a Land Rover, his son will drive a Land Rover, but his son will ride a camel" - Saeed Al Maktoum

The quote is actually likely from a member of Dubai Royal Family. An interesting fact here is that the UAE will never become poor . The UAE has saved up over 1.3 million USD dollars per citizen [a]. And this is just the government’s savings. Obviously, there’s immense private wealth on top of that as well. Even if with investment returns as low as 4% per year drawn out, that would translate to $52,000 per citizen . T…

It’s not impossible (more like highly likely) for that trust to go the same way of the Nauru Phosphate Royalties Trust. Administrative burden and corruption. Mismanagement. Exponential growth can’t go on forever.

It’s interesting that UAE is doing the same thing that Nauru did except on a larger scale with petrochemicals instead of phosphate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Phosphate_Royalties_Trus...

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#312

All true, but I think they're missing the real issue here. Renewables (esp. solar and wind) are, yes, dropping in cost exponentially, and this means they are currently zooming past fossil fuels in terms of affordability. There's an issue in regards to batteries, but that also seems to be on a learning curve that makes it better every year, so that won't buy fossil fuels much more time. Now, instead of rooting for tha…

Also other practical consequences of solar and wind: what about land usage? How much land do we need to power our huge appetite for energy? What impact does that have on the environment? Mining for rare Earth minerals? How do we recycle these systems at the end of life?

People keep talking about the cost of renewables, but in fact, money is the one renewable resource that we do have.

All of the above are majorly important questions. Maybe renewables aren't so renewable after all.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#313

I hate the argument that we’re just waiting for batteries now. I think if we had variable pricing that matched the availability of renewables, consumers would shift quickly. Say something like power costs .02/kWh while the sun is shining and .30 when it’s not. I’d charge my car at work. I’d put a timer on my dryer to turn on at 10am. They probably come out with a hot water heater that goes really hot during the day a…

There are a lot of creative implementations of demand response and time of use rates, but the price curve is crazy (see slide 7 [1]). To achieve a 10% reduction in electricity usage in the evening, you have to give people a 80-90% discount on their electricity at other times. BUT, "smart" water heaters, thermostats, etc. improve these numbers dramatically.

Designing these programs/prices/policies is a huge industry, and I happen to know a good bit about it because we work on helping utilities design these programs at Kevala (shameless plug: we are hiring [2])

[1] http://files.brattle.com/files/7390_price-enabled_demand_res... [2] https://kevalaanalytics.com/positions/

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#314

I hate the argument that we’re just waiting for batteries now. I think if we had variable pricing that matched the availability of renewables, consumers would shift quickly. Say something like power costs .02/kWh while the sun is shining and .30 when it’s not. I’d charge my car at work. I’d put a timer on my dryer to turn on at 10am. They probably come out with a hot water heater that goes really hot during the day a…

> I think if we had variable pricing that matched the availability of renewables, consumers would shift quickly.

If you dig around enough, you'll find plenty of stories of variable electricity costs. From what I understand, it's more common for business customers instead of residential. (Apparently chillers that freeze water overnight with cheap electricity to run daytime air conditioning is a thing.)

But anyway, I have a fancy powerwall and solar, but I only use it for backup. Why? There's no incentive to use the battery. It's 95% efficient, so if I use the battery at night, I get less net metering credits than if I just use it as backup.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#315

All true, but I think they're missing the real issue here. Renewables (esp. solar and wind) are, yes, dropping in cost exponentially, and this means they are currently zooming past fossil fuels in terms of affordability. There's an issue in regards to batteries, but that also seems to be on a learning curve that makes it better every year, so that won't buy fossil fuels much more time. Now, instead of rooting for tha…

> It means that countries which rely on fossil fuels for their economy, are going to see the same kind of crushing economic decline that, say, the UK coal industry has. > What do you suppose happens when, for example, Saudi Arabia can no longer feed itself? It just peacefully and gently starves to death? First, I think you have to segregate between different kinds of fossil fuels. Coal is the worst. From what I under…

Agree, except for I think natural gas for homes (cooling and heating) should be phased out sooner. Letting gas companies build new pipe infrastructure to new homes in warmer climates where induction cooking and heat pumps will do the job just fine is crazy. They are an easy, painless way to reduce carbon emissions and much cheaper for society now. Also likely cheaper for the home owner of the future as gas prices get more expensive.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#316

I hate the argument that we’re just waiting for batteries now. I think if we had variable pricing that matched the availability of renewables, consumers would shift quickly. Say something like power costs .02/kWh while the sun is shining and .30 when it’s not. I’d charge my car at work. I’d put a timer on my dryer to turn on at 10am. They probably come out with a hot water heater that goes really hot during the day a…

As an upper midwesterner, that would be an incredibly hard sell. You could whip up support for coal again in heartbeat.

Renewables are a great idea in theory, but in reality don't jive well with people in the non-windy, non-sunny areas that also get really damn cold. It's sad to say it but nothing can beat what natural gas and coal can do already. They're cheap and can be used to generate electricity at an extraordinarily affordable rate. At the end of the day, that's the #1 thing most people are going to care about. If you told people here their electricity bills would double, they'd actively go out and demand the current politician step down.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#317

All true, but I think they're missing the real issue here. Renewables (esp. solar and wind) are, yes, dropping in cost exponentially, and this means they are currently zooming past fossil fuels in terms of affordability. There's an issue in regards to batteries, but that also seems to be on a learning curve that makes it better every year, so that won't buy fossil fuels much more time. Now, instead of rooting for tha…

Saudi Arabia's plan was to share the risk by taking Saudi Aramco public, right? Or at least that was part of the plan.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#318
If you look at where investors put their money, it's very clear that the learning effects have already convinced them that renewables provide the best ROI. It's not even a debate or a hypothetical outcome. This happened years ago. Price parity for wind/solar happened about seven years ago in most markets. The learning curves that this article talks about have not slowed down since and the result of that is that is that prices are no longer similar but at this point obviously cheaper (2-3x).

What's more interesting is what is going to happen next: they prices going to be an order of magnitude cheaper; and then another one. And this is going to happen quickly. And unless something changes, it's happening on a predictable timeline even. Investors and policy makers are already taking decisions based on this.

The effects of a two orders of magnitude change in pricing are both easy and hard to predict. The easy part is predicting that we will not merely use renewables to replace non renewables. Or put differently, an order of magnitude change in price will be paired with an order of magnitude increase in demand. The world electricity right now is a bit over 30 PWH (peta watt hour) per year, give or take. Normal linear growth would probably get us to 50-100PHW in a couple of decades. However, orders of magnitude changes in prices (10x, 100X, 1000X) could put us on a different path where we are producing hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of PWH of electricity. Like this half of this century.

People worried about storage: Elon Musk is building TWH battery factories right now. A few decades from now we might have hundreds or thousands such factories: enough battery production to store current electricity production for about a year every year. And bear in mind that batteries can be used more than once. A single TWH worth of batteries with about 3000 cycles would store about 3PWH of energy; we only need ten such factories to get to 30PWH. Back of the envelope math is fun.

That's all easy part to predict but it may be hard for people to wrap their heads around the numbers. Exponentials are hard for people's intuitions. The only uncertainty here is how long the learning curves will apply. The most pessimistic perspective on that would be that thousands of R&D projects, startups, research institutes are going to fail 100% starting right now and the learning curves will flat line completely and immediately. Any other perspective means that 10x is 100% certain to happen in 15-20 years and 100x would be extremely likely by 2060 or so. I hope to still be around by then. I could be off by an order of magnitude (both ways) and basically the only change would be the years in this paragraph would change a little.

The hard part is predicting what we'll actually do with this energy. There's no shortage of interesting applications that are essentially cost bottle-necked on energy. Synthetic fuels, clean water, heavy industry, transport, mass transit, etc. all benefit from orders of magnitude changes in pricing for energy. This is a massive economic opportunity.

What that also means is that the learning curves this article talks about will start impacting the cost of things that currently don't have them. Including most of our legacy fossil energy infrastructure. A gas plant burning fossil methane doesn't benefit from this learning curve. The same plant burning methane produced from thin air using excess solar/wind does: that becomes cheaper to operate as the price of solar/wind drops.

Current fossil fuel energy consumption is going to be a rounding error when you consider the demand increase fueled by a 100x drop in electricity prices. Eventually, fossil fuel is going to be beyond irrelevant as we'll literally be able to synthesize the entire current demand for that orders of magnitude cheaper than current prices. All forms of fossil fuel exploitation will grind to a halt because of that. That's good news.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#319
post #245

I hate the argument that we’re just waiting for batteries now. I think if we had variable pricing that matched the availability of renewables, consumers would shift quickly. Say something like power costs .02/kWh while the sun is shining and .30 when it’s not. I’d charge my car at work. I’d put a timer on my dryer to turn on at 10am. They probably come out with a hot water heater that goes really hot during the day a…

This already exist in some places (for example Amber and Powerclub in Australia). The issue is it's more effort than most people are happy to exert. They are used to flicking a switch having the appliance on whenever they want it. To change that will either involve much higher prices, a substantial shift in the way we think about energy, or an improvement in technology to allow the load shifting to happen in the back…

If spot pricing for residential consumers was universal instead of niche, I suspect the technology would rapidly develop to meet this requirement.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#320
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is going to buy a trillion dollar stake in a shrinking market?

Growth isn't necessary to make something a good investment. Imagine you are investing in a single mortgage: you get a little income each month, and after 30 years it stops completely. Essentially the value goes to zero! But the stream of income is what you care about. Aramco is similar; it will kick off income every year in dividends and eventually be worth zero.

It’s the opposite of growth. Would you buy a house if you knew it wouldn’t be there in 20 years?
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