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Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

reuters.com

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Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#101

Post by cdolan »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #86
cdolan wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I start reading I go for hours haha. Am I correct that it inverted/reversed?

Yes, but I'm not sure why it inverted. If you open the accident report ( https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/... ) and ctrl-F "rudder", you get 2,112 matches. So "reading for hours" is a distinct possibility in this case... (Oh, by the way, I didn't mean to imply you were mistaken, or anything like that. I was just so shocked that a plane's controls could invert themselves in any conceivable c…

No offense taken. I meant that if I start researching it again I’ll be up for 5 hours because of the personal ties to it.

My recollection in researching this a decade ago was that the cold weather made the behavior of the rudder change (my term was invert, maybe that’s not accurate), and pilots were trying to pull up, but in fact putting the plane deeper into a nosedive. Some 25 seconds later they hit the ground at some 300-400 MPH and vaporized.

The only way to have saved the plane would have been to dump the hydraulics and/or switch to a manual fly by wire mode, neither of which were a logici thing to do in the 15 seconds they had to save the flight.

I’ve only flown for 20 hours in a Cessna so sorry if my terminology isn’t perfect!

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#102

Post by dghlsakjg »

canada_dry wrote: post #80
pcurve wrote: post #61

Chances are, these will be safe. Because one more crash even remotely related, would spell complete doom for Boeing. No recovering that one, ever.

I believe the FAA should have insisted that the MAX get several hundred hours in the air - e.g. flying for courier companies over Christmas peak - BEFORE recertifying it for public use.

Why would that be better than the hundreds of hours of flight testing that they have done since the plane was grounded?

Everyday flights are as boring as possible on purpose, you do everything you can to keep the plane away from the limits.

Flight testing inverts that. You run everything to the limit, and beyond, to see if it is possible for systems to fail.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#103

Post by ClumsyPilot »

pdonis wrote: post #66
salawat wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't a really a physical one in principle here. It's an issue of corporate accountability. You had corners cut to deliver a product that ended up killing people. There is no real room for doubt in that just from the material we have available. So, what? What happens? What should happen? Everything go back to "normal"? Let the same people who ran things continue to profit off their wrongdoing? Accept that a…

What alternative would you propose? You can't just remove Boeing as a company: they have tens of thousands of existing aircraft in the field that need to be maintained, and a large number of people who were not at fault in all of this whose jobs would be eliminated. So how do you hold the proper people accountable without doing so much collateral damage that the cost of that outweighs the benefits? Also, responsibili…

The alternative is obvious - corporate manslaughter charges, aimed at management that knew plane was unsafe and pushed on regardless.

> " collateral damage so cost of that outweighs the benefits"

Do we have a system a justice or do we not? You seem to suggest some people are above the law. Let's see, could that possibly lead to corruption and abuse of power?

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#104

Post by quickthrower2 »

ghayes wrote: post #42
DevX101 wrote: post #7

I recently had the frivolous idea of creating a flight search engine for flights that DID NOT use the 737 Max. Any actual interest in this?

Serious question: if an airline changes the aircraft, is that grounds for a refund on your flight?

What if they switch it for a Tiger Moth?

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#107

Post by ClumsyPilot »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #102
canada_dry wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the FAA should have insisted that the MAX get several hundred hours in the air - e.g. flying for courier companies over Christmas peak - BEFORE recertifying it for public use.

Why would that be better than the hundreds of hours of flight testing that they have done since the plane was grounded? Everyday flights are as boring as possible on purpose, you do everything you can to keep the plane away from the limits. Flight testing inverts that. You run everything to the limit, and beyond, to see if it is possible for systems to fail.

While that's true, the flight testing is done by skilled pilots, while courier flights could be done by some who's really scraping yhe barrel.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#108

Post by drawkbox »

lukehutch wrote: post #60
DevX101 wrote: post #7

I recently had the frivolous idea of creating a flight search engine for flights that DID NOT use the 737 Max. Any actual interest in this?

Planes can be switched out last-minute. I plan to check the plane type at the gate every time I fly for the next 10 years, and if it's a MAX, I'll reschedule my flight on the spot. They claim they solved the software problem, but they didn't solve the physics problems created by the engine position (which necessitated the software in the first place).

On top of that there was a single angle of attack (AoA) sensor active that was complained about and failed hundreds of times. [1]

Not only is that a single point of failure, it is more easily sabotaged or easily damaged.

Besides the fact the plane has engines too big for it and needed this MCAS system simply to retrofit and route around regulations and deal with that by constantly checking the AoA to trigger nose down adjustments, this is bad engineering/product design by management.

The software now takes two sensors into account in case of a failure of one but is still a problem potentially. Not sure if software can solve this.

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/30/politics/boeing-sensor-737-ma...

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#109

Post by windthrown »

skybrian wrote: post #64
salawat wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't a really a physical one in principle here. It's an issue of corporate accountability. You had corners cut to deliver a product that ended up killing people. There is no real room for doubt in that just from the material we have available. So, what? What happens? What should happen? Everything go back to "normal"? Let the same people who ran things continue to profit off their wrongdoing? Accept that a…

The CEO resigned, so it's questionable whether there are the same people running things. How much other management changed?

The replacement CEO was previously the chairman of the board. So while they did change personnel, I am skeptical about how different their actual management practices are.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#110

Post by gsnedders »

glaucon wrote: post #3

"In another display of confidence, European budget airline Ryanair was set to place a hefty order for up to 75 additional 737 MAX jets, industry sources said." A Ryanair spokesperson said "It's the first time we've ever been offered a discount in excess of 100%"

Ryanair were notable for also placing a large order for the 737 NG in January 2002, which was rumoured to be in excess of 50% of list price, as Boeing had struggled to make any sales and was having lay-offs.
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