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Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

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Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#501

Post by lawnchair_larry »

wnevets wrote: post #353
twblalock wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual negotiations are, best I can tell, way in the past. Are you kidding? Salaries have never been higher in tech. Senior engineers make more than $400k (sometimes way more) at Google and other large companies. It is likely that engineers at FAANG companies would make less money if they join a union, because the union would level…

>Are you kidding? Salaries have never been higher in tech. Senior engineers make more than $400k (sometimes way more) at Google and other large companies. and they would be even higher if google and apple didn't conspire to force them lower.

No they wouldn’t. That was over a decade ago.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#502

Post by munk-a »

cortesoft wrote: post #330
munk-a wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is unfortunate (and a reflection of the power imbalance in US employment) that Google doesn't simply offer a corporate phone as a matter of practice - it benefits both the employee and the employer in the long run (with dishonest actions put aside).

Some people don't like carrying two phones.

Those people aren't barred from suffering from invasions of privacy and rootkits for the sake of a minor convenience.

Most places outside of tech folks with tolls need to carry company tools where they go - doctors carrying hospital beepers was essentially a meme in the 90's.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#503

Post by [deleted] »

cj wrote: post #324
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised that the parent post was downvoted, because AFAICT it's a valid comparison. Is there something I'm missing?

In the context of starting a job at Google, I highly doubt you sign your employment contracts the day you show up for work. Typically employment contracts are signed and settled well before you enter the building as an employee. I would be surprised if the OP’s anecdote regarding the Googler pulled on the 1st day is in line with reality. Edit: apparently I’m wrong, the downvotes were deserved! I run hiring at my comp…

[deleted]

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#504

Post by Rebelgecko »

eschneider wrote: post #88
ditonal wrote: post #40

One thing that happens in SV is: * Employer says "hey, we have all these convenient corporate app, wouldn't it be nice to be able to check work messages and work docs on your mobile? Just install our app to "corp-ify" your phone" * Employer now views your mobile device as containing sensitive company IP and therefore they have the right to snoop on anything on your phone. If you install corp on your phone, Google vie…

Does it flag me as an old that the last thing on earth I want to do is check work messages/docs from my phone? There's a concept of 'checking out for the day and going home' that's important to not going crazy, especially now. If something goes wrong, or there's an emergency, folks have a number they can text/call. But constantly check messages? No way.

If you're forgetful like me, it's really helpful to be able to check what time the first meeting is tomorrow when I set my alarm before bed.

Now that work from home is a thing, I also like having an standard way to communicate with work and be at least partially productive in case my laptop dies. I have my Do Not Disturb settings set so that the work profile doesn't show me email or chat settings outside of work hours on weekdays so I can start email triage during my morning bowel movement if I want, but it won't nag me if I'd rather spend that time in quiet contemplation.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#505

Post by lucian1900 »

renewiltord wrote: post #468
lucian1900 wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is having no democratic power over the workplace at all. Being in the 49% that disagreed with something is still better than your boss mandating the choice instead. In practice, it’s also quite rare for workers to strongly disagree among themselves. Disagreements tend to happen between groups with different material incentives, so largely between workers and owners/management.

> Being in the 49% that disagreed with something is still better than your boss mandating the choice instead. No, it really isn't because of ecosystem effects. Per-company unions find themselves rapidly affiliated with industry unions and then pan-industry unions. The net effect of this is that in non-union industries you can go somewhere else and negotiate with a new boss. In union industries you go somewhere else a…

If there are other bosses available. If they are in any way different. If you’re lucky to stand out.

In practice, you’re far more likely to agree with fellow workers than with bosses. You have material interests largely in common, not largely opposed. That’s why unionised workplaces and industries have measurably better pay and conditions.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#506

Post by caconym_ »

ehsankia wrote: post #414
caconym_ wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those high salaries aren't the result of individual negotiations, though. FAANMG+ companies pay very well, but salaries for the vast majority of engineers are determined by black box formulas, and in cases where blocs of employees think there's something unfair about their compensation (for instance, people in one location being paid more than people in another) there's absolutely nothing they can do about it. The sc…

Is it really a black box though? The majority of these companies have spreadsheets where people share their salaries, and from what I've seen, it's a fairly basic formula based on 3 factors: Level, rating and location. Yes, there's maybe a few % of wiggle in there, but generally it's fairly consistent from what I've seen. You could argue that the way you get a rating, or even the way you get promoted are a black box,…

I don't mean to imply that it's not predictable—I just think it's relevant to note that it's completely unaccountable. You get a number, and that's your number.

Nor do I mean to imply that it's awful, or worse than X. I know from experience how unfair individual negotiation can be, having been on both ends of massive pay ranges for the same title and responsibilities at the same company. It's not all sunshine and roses in my current job as a software engineer at $BIGCORP, but I do appreciate the relative fairness with regard to pay, and the magnitude doesn't hurt either.

Still, it's worth pointing out that a) unions have done great things for workers across many industries, b) that tech workers usually have no institutionalized collective bargaining power, c) that many tech workers have essentially no individual bargaining power either, and d) that tech work has been following a trend of increasing commodification.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#507

Post by Ericson2314 »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #497
hiddencost wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, no. Nope. Google has been suppressing wages progressively for years. They made an illegal no poach agreement with their peers that led to one of the largest settlements in history. Just this past cycle they pushed down compensation for top performers. There was an internal slide deck someone found where they laid out plans to reduce pay by slowing down promo to senior levels. A union would mean the ability to neg…

> A union would mean the ability to negotiate as a group rather than just taking whatever Google decided to offer us. One of the highest salaries on the planet, and they still have several competitors? Yeah, this is very short sighted. The system works, and tech employees need unions for salary negotiations less than nearly everybody. This doesn’t end how you hope, and just reeks of unearned entitlement. If you don’t…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Labor how about how you learn some labor history, and how organization efforts spearheaded by the most privileged workers, however odious in some respect, did beget trends good for all.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#508

Post by dannyw »

Veelox wrote: post #160
whimsicalism wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If she had used a company printer to print pro-union fliers and then shared them I'm 90% she could be fired for misuse of company resources. At to my intuition this feels like using the company printer without permission. Until Trump's NLRB overturned the precedent late last year, workers had stronger protections than getting fired for a minor slip-up in the course of organizing. But today, your intuition would be…

So I am not going to update my opinion, this was legal but morally dubious on Google's part. On her part it sucks but she easily could have avoided the situation.

No, changes cannot be retroactive (in general) meaning the prior law applied at that time.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#509

Post by renewiltord »

lucian1900 wrote: post #505
renewiltord wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being in the 49% that disagreed with something is still better than your boss mandating the choice instead. No, it really isn't because of ecosystem effects. Per-company unions find themselves rapidly affiliated with industry unions and then pan-industry unions. The net effect of this is that in non-union industries you can go somewhere else and negotiate with a new boss. In union industries you go somewhere else a…

If there are other bosses available. If they are in any way different. If you’re lucky to stand out. In practice, you’re far more likely to agree with fellow workers than with bosses. You have material interests largely in common, not largely opposed. That’s why unionised workplaces and industries have measurably better pay and conditions.

Operating in the aggregate is a fool's game. I am not the arbitrary worker who has more in common with the arbitrary worker. I am an immigrant with many immigrant friends from various countries. The arbitrary American worker wants me out and wants my friends out. He is no ally of mine. I will not stand with him.

There are other bosses. They are different. And my industry is superior to most unionized industries so I don't care.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#510

Post by liveoneggs »

cooljacob204 wrote: post #66
janesvilleseo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree. People laugh at me why I carry two phones but this is the main reason. If my employer needs me to have a mobile phone they are paying for separate device and plan. It’s a little silly I need to carry 2 phones around but it makes my life so much more convenient. Unknown call on my work phone guess I’ll answer. If it’s on my personal then it’s spam. Leave company, no need to update or port my number. Want t…

With android work profiles I don't think it's that big a deal. It's isolated from my phone, my employer can't see anything outside the profile and I just disable it on weekends/vacations.

yeah android phones are totally safe from google
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