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Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

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Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#471

Post by madeofpalk »

renewiltord wrote: post #466
black_puppydog wrote: post #262

The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions? The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual n…

People should be allowed to unionize but I'll oppose it at every front. Because mass power means mass power that can be turned against me. 2016 taught me something. There are a large contingent of anti-immigrants out there. Should you allow the creation of a mob, a day will come when the populists will take control of it. In moments, the mob can break generations of integration. The best defence against it is prevent…

The problem is there already is a single "mob of power", and that’s the employer. If your employer decides it’s anti-immigrant, that’s bad for you.

Unions are an attempt to create a "mob" to counter the "mob" of the employer.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#472

Post by JMTQp8lwXL »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #361
JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They assumed his assumption. Waltzing in and saying "Hey, I made this change", discussing it, and saying "okay, it seems we are aligned" is all part of the negotiation dance. G would have every right to ponder his suggestion for a few days, then respond to it. We don't reject candidates for asking for more compensation; this should've been treated the same way. G could've said, "Sorry, we don't wish to change that co…

Asking or negotiating is different: Crossing something out and handing it back isn't the same.

Asking is part of the activity that is negotiating. You might verbally asking for the change, and then specifically outline the additions and removals with a pen on the contract itself.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#473

Post by _jal »

cj wrote: post #324
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised that the parent post was downvoted, because AFAICT it's a valid comparison. Is there something I'm missing?

In the context of starting a job at Google, I highly doubt you sign your employment contracts the day you show up for work. Typically employment contracts are signed and settled well before you enter the building as an employee. I would be surprised if the OP’s anecdote regarding the Googler pulled on the 1st day is in line with reality. Edit: apparently I’m wrong, the downvotes were deserved! I run hiring at my comp…

It is pretty normal in SV to not see your actual contract before you start. I think I have only ever signed one ahead of time, and that was an unusual situation in other ways.

(Normal, not right. And I started working here in the early 90s.)

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#474

Post by madeofpalk »

ehsankia wrote: post #414
caconym_ wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those high salaries aren't the result of individual negotiations, though. FAANMG+ companies pay very well, but salaries for the vast majority of engineers are determined by black box formulas, and in cases where blocs of employees think there's something unfair about their compensation (for instance, people in one location being paid more than people in another) there's absolutely nothing they can do about it. The sc…

Is it really a black box though? The majority of these companies have spreadsheets where people share their salaries, and from what I've seen, it's a fairly basic formula based on 3 factors: Level, rating and location. Yes, there's maybe a few % of wiggle in there, but generally it's fairly consistent from what I've seen. You could argue that the way you get a rating, or even the way you get promoted are a black box,…

> The majority of these companies have spreadsheets where people share their salaries

You mean a group of employees collectively organized?

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#475

Post by leftyted »

black_puppydog wrote: post #465
leftyted wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working at Google while complaining about "labor exploitation" is like being a rich white kid in a Che shirt

Not comparing google to coal mines. BUT 1. Unionized coal mines had/have much better wages and working conditions :) 2. Of course there are shades everywhere. And just because there are worse exploiters, doesn't mean google should get away with anything that's not "as bad" as those.

Coal mines should be unionized because the miners have their backs against the wall.

If I felt I was being under-compensated, working in poor conditions, and had my back against the wall, I'd want a union too. But describing my job like that is hysterically funny, much less Google programmers.

What's really going on here is simple. If you work at Google, your job is too good. There's no struggle. People want a struggle and so they invent one by LARPing as Marxists.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#476

Post by _jal »

ditonal wrote: post #40

One thing that happens in SV is: * Employer says "hey, we have all these convenient corporate app, wouldn't it be nice to be able to check work messages and work docs on your mobile? Just install our app to "corp-ify" your phone" * Employer now views your mobile device as containing sensitive company IP and therefore they have the right to snoop on anything on your phone. If you install corp on your phone, Google vie…

This is exactly right. When my employer started requiring apps on my phone, they started paying that phone bill and I got a another one.

Completely aside from denying observability to shitbag panty-sniffers like Google HR, it is important to me to be able to wipe that phone when I leave to know there is no remaining access/sensitive info/etc. while also not wiping anything important to me.

Same reason I keep personal stuff off my work laptop and vice/versa.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#477

Post by lokar »

mleonhard wrote: post #424
ChuckMcM wrote: post #191

True story, a person I know who was offered a job at Google got the employment agreement (prior to arriving which was pretty standard at the time) and read that bit about "allowing Google to protect it's IP by installing a rootkit" and they red lined it to change it "May only access Google related information and no personal information." When they showed up HR started with "But that isn't how we use it, we would nev…

I guess the person didn't really want the job. If they wanted it, they could have just gotten a company phone and laptop, used them only for work, and kept them in the office. Company devices are occasionally stolen for their internal data: emails, docs, code, and config. This data can be useful to investors and competitors. Companies hire expensive people to limit the amount of data exposed in theft incidents. Under…

Also, these companies (not just Google) face the very real threat of outside groups (and nation states) attempting to infiltrate them via new hires. They need full control and detailed forensics for all authorized access devices.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#478

Post by eikenberry »

waheoo wrote: post #369
ardy42 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like he didn't just ask for a contract change: He simply crossed it out and expected them to take it. I believe that's how one typically asks for contract changes. https://blog.pandadoc.com/what-is-contract-redlining-and-con... : > The term “redlining” commonly refers to the editing and negotiation process during document and business contract management where contributors mark text and track changes coll…

That is exactly how it works. I've changed every contract I've ever signed like this. Usually those bullshit lines about employer owning all code I write, even on the weekend type stuff. I've only had to walk from one job over it. Bullet dodged.

I've done this as well, though I only needed to once. They didn't even look at the contract I turned in. Just slapped it in a file and went on with things. Never came up again.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#479

Post by renewiltord »

madeofpalk wrote: post #471
renewiltord wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should be allowed to unionize but I'll oppose it at every front. Because mass power means mass power that can be turned against me. 2016 taught me something. There are a large contingent of anti-immigrants out there. Should you allow the creation of a mob, a day will come when the populists will take control of it. In moments, the mob can break generations of integration. The best defence against it is prevent…

The problem is there already is a single "mob of power", and that’s the employer. If your employer decides it’s anti-immigrant, that’s bad for you. Unions are an attempt to create a "mob" to counter the "mob" of the employer.

This part is true. The employer does have more power than most employees. However, the employer isn't permitted the kind of cross-company monopsony that unions are permitted to form. Employers would like to try this and have done so (Apple+Google famous anti-poach being an example). Anti-poaching agreements are illegal and when they take place they've been slapped down.

However, unions have no such restriction. A Google union would affiliate itself with a Facebook union and those with a Kickstarter union and those with a Random Startup union and before you know it you can't go anywhere without being subject to the wisdom common to Google+Facebook. This makes sense to the union: increased power comes with increased size.

If my employer decides they're anti-immigrant I will go elsewhere and be paid just as well. They will lose.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#480

Post by [deleted] »

renewiltord wrote: post #466
black_puppydog wrote: post #262

The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions? The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual n…

People should be allowed to unionize but I'll oppose it at every front. Because mass power means mass power that can be turned against me. 2016 taught me something. There are a large contingent of anti-immigrants out there. Should you allow the creation of a mob, a day will come when the populists will take control of it. In moments, the mob can break generations of integration. The best defence against it is prevent…

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