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Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

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Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#121
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question! Here's what Germany did: They invested a vast amount in local renewables, at above market prices, that had the effect of dramatically driving down the global price of wind and solar. Because they radically expanded production capacity. Effectively, Germany gave the world a 'gift'! This had the long-term affect of dramatically increasing global solar + wind deployments (b/c prices fell) and transferrin…

Looking at the data on rolled out photovoltaics from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics It looks like Europe as a whole is only a fraction of global spending from 2012 onwards. Germany is only a part of that. How do you discount the counterfactual that Solar power costs were going down anyway as there was global demand anyway for solar panels at reasonable scale? Also, do you have any referen…

All great questions.

When I look at the "Worldwide growth of photovoltaics" plot at the top of the page you linked, I see the "Green" (European) color dominate from 2008-2013 (maybe 80%+ of installs). Germany purchases, peaking in 2011, where in the heart of when solar price declines occurred. By the same chart, deployments in the rest of the world explode post 2014, after the big price declines.

Here's an article from 2011 (concurrent with German deployments) showing the immense price falls at that time: https://rameznaam.com/2011/03/17/expis-moores-law-really-a-f...

Yes, there's a huge 'chicken' v 'egg' question here: deployment vs. price declines from tech learning rates. Someone had to kick-start this process by for huge deployments when it was uneconomical, to then drive scaling in production. Germany footed the bill. Global deployments then soured after those purchases and price declines.

Perhaps someone else would have done this later, but I don't really care about the historical counterfactual, I care about who's balance sheet the uneconomic debt, to kickstart the virtuous cycle, sits on. So I credit Germany.

Yes, I am attributing a success to the Energiewende that was not part of the initial plan. But I do think it's an important success. Here's reference: https://xenetwork.org/ets/episodes/episode-4-energiewende/

My understanding of the Energiewende, is that it was never focused on climate. Rather is was a plan to create economic energy independence at a time of very high and rising oil prices (e.g. 2008-2014).

So from 2020, the plan looks like a failure b/c 1) the twin tech. breakthroughs of low priced renewables and fracking have "slayed" the monster of rising high hydrocarbon prices 2) we now view climate change as a far bigger issue. If energy prices had stayed high, I think we'd view the Energiewende as achieving it's stated goals. The situation has changed.

Though, I'll be the first person to say the CO2 goals of the energy transition are more important than what the Energiewende focused on.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#122
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that very close to how a normal electricity marketplace would work? The consumer mostly doesn't care if they got their electricity from renewables or not, so they pay the same price.

No, a normal electricity marketplace would eat up the profits from getting more efficient renewables. e.g. If fossil is $4/kW and wind is $2/kW then normal market buys all the wind at $2/kW. Here, government will pay $2/kW premium on the wind. That means every cost gain on wind goes to the provider.

In a competitive market, the surplus resulting from reduction in wholesale cost of electricity would fall mostly on consumer side: market would buy wind at $2/kWh, but the retail consumer prices would also fall correspondingly. Alas, utilities are rarely competitive markets, so the electricity retailers have more ability to capture some of the surplus.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#123
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question! Here's what Germany did: They invested a vast amount in local renewables, at above market prices, that had the effect of dramatically driving down the global price of wind and solar. Because they radically expanded production capacity. Effectively, Germany gave the world a 'gift'! This had the long-term affect of dramatically increasing global solar + wind deployments (b/c prices fell) and transferrin…

Looking at the data on rolled out photovoltaics from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics It looks like Europe as a whole is only a fraction of global spending from 2012 onwards. Germany is only a part of that. How do you discount the counterfactual that Solar power costs were going down anyway as there was global demand anyway for solar panels at reasonable scale? Also, do you have any referen…

I'm not sure that graph contradicts OP's narrative. It clearly shows European PV capacity rapidly growing from almost nothing to near-present levels from 2006 to 2012, with the rest of the world accounting for only a tiny fraction. This corresponds to a time period when solar prices dropped dramatically: https://samsetproject.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/fall-in-so...

Then, once PV prices were cheap, the rest of the world bought a ton of cheap PV capacity.

Now, this doesn't prove that the reduction in price was caused by European PV spending, but the data certainly is strongly compatible with that claim.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#124
post #116

The "safest and cleanest" chart is VERY misleading when in comes to nuclear. It completely ignores the LONG-TERM risk for human survival: catastrophic release of large quantities of active fuel or waste (due to events like war, terrorism, natural disasters).

Surely this theoretical risk of that is dwarved by the concrete risk of climate change.

No doubt, but this is entirely besides the point. My point is still valid.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#125
Personal anecdote - my house has two sets of solar panels on the roof - the first was installed in 2017, the second was just installed last month.

In 2017 my 6kw system cost $24,000 before any incentives (by SolarCity).

In 2020 my 7.8kw system cost $15,000 before any incentives (by Tesla).

Of that $15k, $4.3k was for the panels themselves, $2k for the inverter, $1k for mounting hardware, and $8k for installation.

It's pretty shocking to me that in just 3 years the price per watt was basically halved, all in. Because looking at the breakdown, half the cost is in installation and presumably marketing and sales costs. Even if the panels themselves cost half as much, it would be a relatively small decrease in the total cost of the system.

I wonder what the practical bottom is - even if the panels were free, there's a floor on the labor cost.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#126
post #12

The article says the world relies on fossil fuel for energy because it's cheaper. That's true. It doesn't mention that the world relies on it because it's reliable. It doesn't disappear for 6 months of the year, or stop producing for 3 out of 5 days or during peak demand periods. Make renewables cheaper and more reliable and they will replace fossil fuels in a snap. Cheaper is not enough if it doesn't do the job.

have you guys seen Naomi Klein new documentary. Renewable energy is a joke, just another way to squeeze money out of normal people by using a taxation system.

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/09/17/the-green-new-deal-...

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#127

Confronting and solving the duck curve[1] and producing high duty-cycle electricity during non-sunlight hours is going to be a real challenge. We're at the point now where states will often pay other states to take excess renewable electricity during peak hours. What's the point in cheaper when we're already effectively throwing away electricity? I personally don't believe batteries are going to do it. The world need…

Excess? Storage is the way to go. Even skimming some edge off the top could allow arbitrage opportunities that could create a market by itself.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#128
post #71
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in the past they were cheaper. Now renewables are cheaper. Right now, intermittent renewables actually drives up the cost of fossil fuels! Renewables do wacky things to the spot price of power - sometimes electricity is free or even has negative value, sometimes it's expensive. Ideally fossil fuel plants would only spin up when they could sell power at a profit, but they can't dispatch so quickly, so they end up sell…

I think we’ll start using more ways to store the energy. In the scenarios you describe, when the energy price fluctuate so wildly, the processes don’t have to be efficient. There’s not really a problem if 70% is lost in the process if the energy we started with is free. Pumping water to higher elevation or hydrogen production is suddenly reasonable.

Pumped storage is great, but it's simply not viable at a large scale. There are very few places where natural landscape allows it, and making more artificial ones would require flooding vast areas. Considering how difficult it often is to build solar plants on deserts (e.g. consider Ivanpah solar plant, which almost did not get build due to its impact on habitat of desert tortoises, which ended up getting relocated at a cost of $300k each), I don't expect the green interest groups to accept such wholesale destruction of environments.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#129
post #115

The "safest and cleanest" chart is VERY misleading when in comes to nuclear. It completely ignores the LONG-TERM risk for human survival: catastrophic release of large quantities of active fuel or waste (due to events like war, terrorism, natural disasters).

Big disasters too happen with fossils and hydro.

If there was a systemic risk that all dams in the world magically collapse at the same time then it should be included in the comparison.

Not accounting for all types of risks makes for a very skewed comparison.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#130
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in the past they were cheaper. Now renewables are cheaper. Right now, intermittent renewables actually drives up the cost of fossil fuels! Renewables do wacky things to the spot price of power - sometimes electricity is free or even has negative value, sometimes it's expensive. Ideally fossil fuel plants would only spin up when they could sell power at a profit, but they can't dispatch so quickly, so they end up sell…

>Now renewables are cheaper. Yes, provided you ignore the cost of balancing an increasingly volatile grid, a volatility that is created by renewables. Also provided you ignore the cost to provide energy when said renewables aren't generating any. Claims to back up your statment, such as from Lazard, are horribly flawed because they use the metric of LCOE - levelised cost of energy - to claim that renewable energy is…

It's sad to see people downvote correct information.

For context, the US consumes ~12TWh of electricity daily, so 500 GWh per hour. Global lithium ion battery production is around 300 GWh per year. While it's true this is projected to rise exponentially, the amount dedicated to storage is minuscule compared to the scale required to fulfill even one hour of energy storage [1]. This has prompted people to propose more exotic forms of storage like hydrogen, methane produced through the Sabatier process, or thermal storage. But none of those have been deployed at any significant scale, and their feasibility remains unproven.

Nobody generates more than 20% of their electricity from solar. Denmark is the only country that generates over 30% of its power from wind, and Germany is the 3rd highest at 24.7% [2]. By comparison plenty of countries generate more than 30% of their electricity from nuclear power: Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Belgium, Hungary, Ukraine, Slovakia, and France. And the last 3 all produce the majority of their electricity from nuclear. [3]

Fossil fuels didn't kick off the industrial revolution, it was the heat engine. The ability to translate thermal energy into mechanical energy. Heating a fluid, turning a turbine, which turns a dynamo is something we cannot easily replace. Replacing the source of heat with a carbon-free source represents a much more modest refactor as compared to trying to migrate modern societies off the the heat engine. Renewables make sense as mitigation: just slap down some solar or wind, don't bother with storage, and shave off daytime carbon emissions when it is producing. But not as the backbone of a carbon-free energy sector.

1. https://energycentral.com/c/ec/world-battery-production

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable...

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_by_country

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