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Ethereum 2.0 launches

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Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#461

Post by cwkoss »

tomhoward wrote: post #205
ForHackernews wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does any of this require ethereum? We have all kinds of markets already, ones that are much faster, more liquid and more efficient than any blockchain-backed exchanges. There's nothing stopping a recording artist from incorporating and listing shares on any traditional exchanges, or you from making a new exchange. Literally the only things Ethereum adds are decentralization and no way to dispute or reverse transa…

> There's nothing stopping a recording artist from incorporating and listing shares on any traditional exchanges There absolutely is: it is almost unimaginably expensive and administratively complicated, hence the only entities to IPO these days are companies valued in the tens of billions, who have exhausted all other options for raising capital privately and need to raise at least hundreds of millions or billions m…

The issue I have with this is that those regulations still exist.

For a recording artist to raise funds in this way still requires that they deal with all the administrative complications - laws just tend to not be enforced very frequently in this new space.

If Jay-Z launched Jay-Zcoin and raised $100M, the SEC and IRS are going to be poking around his finances and looking for any place he violated the law and imposing fines.

I think a lot of the "potential business models" for ethereum that people discuss may be (sometimes) technically robust, but the are also usually extremely fragile politically.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#462

Post by dragonwriter »

Karunamon wrote: post #388
pavlov wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Now imagine how bad it would be if the code handling this kind of money was on Ethereum where bugs are forever and failures irrevocable.

Now compare financial loss from bugs/hackers in smart contracts to financial loss from deception on the part of bankers, brokers, company execs, etc - the exact kind of fraud that's much harder to perpetrate with smart contracts. I'd wager the second number is and always will be orders of magnitude larger. Enron alone was responsible for ~$74bn of loss.

> Now compare financial loss from bugs/hackers in smart contracts to financial loss from deception on the part of bankers, brokers, company execs, etc

But be sure, in doing so, to compare them as a share of total transactions made through smart contracts vs. the total involving 'bankers, brokers, company execs, etc.'

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#463

Post by javert »

downandout wrote: post #361
nootropicat wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define 'kill'. ETC has been 51% attacked multiple times and it still exists. It's very possible some people are going to mine btc on their personal hardware even in 2100. The only caveat is the difficulty adjustment algorithm, as it's potentially possible for btc to become stuck at an extremely high difficulty. For 'kill' as in 'stops being big and important' I think it's going to happen relatively soon, mostly agree…

Bitcoin might fall into obsolescence, but it won’t be because it is mined. It simply isn’t as useful as ETH. I firmly believe that DeFi, which is based upon ETH’s smart contracts and distributed EVM concept, is the future of the finance and investing universe, even with its many issues today. Flash loans/minting, for example, have turned the markets into the ultimate meritocracy. Anyone - rich or poor - can access up…

> Anyone - rich or poor - can access up to hundreds of millions of dollars instantly to execute any profitable transaction, no human review or approval necessary

What does this mean? If I'm poor (or rich), why not borrow hundreds of millions of dollars to make some highly speculative trade? If it goes well, I win big; if it goes tits up, the lender loses big (not me).

I'm certain that's an uncharitable reading of your comment - please take it in the spirit of "this is what I'm asking you to explain to me in simpler terms," not as an argument.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#464

Post by wpietri »

rebelnz wrote: post #409
wpietri wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me at least, "Imagine the possibilities!" is not an answer to the question, "What's it good for?" Indeed, my experience is that it's almost an anti-answer. For example, in the mid-aughts I was talking with the CEO of a well-funded "semantic web" company about joining. I liked the people and the tech was cool, but I just couldn't figure out how it would turn a profit. His answer was similar to yours, a "what could…

I would also like to address the 'scarcity' claim - when cryptos are being churned out like in the last few years they're hardly scarce anymore ...

Excellent point. The coinmarketcap.com site lists 3882 cryptocurrencies. That makes the "Bitcoin's limited supply means permanent value" talking point ridiculous. They list 91 things with "Bitcoin" in the title, 6 of which are in the top 100 by monetary supply, and all 6 notionally have at least $100m in circulation.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#465

Post by cwkoss »

twox2 wrote: post #226
sosuke wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: this complaint is null now! Poo, minimum 32 ETH or at current prices $19k. This reinforces my dislike of staking. Only making the already rich richer. Keeping lesser ETH holders out of the profit. But who am I kidding; if I magically had 32 ETH to stake I'd probably feel differently.

In crypto there's this concept of delegation and also pooling. This allows folks with smaller holdings to be exposed to the benefits of staking.

Can this be done non-custodially?

i.e. can an ETH holder somehow delegate a pool to be able to stake with that ETH but not spend it?

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#466

Post by wpietri »

api wrote: post #370
wpietri wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me at least, "Imagine the possibilities!" is not an answer to the question, "What's it good for?" Indeed, my experience is that it's almost an anti-answer. For example, in the mid-aughts I was talking with the CEO of a well-funded "semantic web" company about joining. I liked the people and the tech was cool, but I just couldn't figure out how it would turn a profit. His answer was similar to yours, a "what could…

You touched on the core problem with cryptocurrency, and it is not a technology problem . The problem is that cryptocurrency and the community around it is absolutely crawling with scams to the point that it's hard to find things that are not scams. Bad drives out good. Even if the tech works perfectly and can be made to scale, if the ecosystem is full of scams it will never be used for anything but scams and black/g…

Exactly. It's the same vicious circle you see with bad neighborhoods, or with community sites that take freedom of expression as their north star. 4chan, for example, was once a noble attempt at a free speech zone, but it has long been known as a wretched hive of scum and villainy. As you say, bad drives out good.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#467

Post by eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 »

pietjepuk88 wrote: post #458
eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel it makes little sense for the Ethereum Foundation to pour their own (human) resources into this. Well, they received $ 18.3 million in crowdfunding [1], so I would dare to say it's not only "their" resources but also the resources of the community which they're spending, isn't it? Given that the central thing a user needs to use a cryptocurrency is the wallet it would seem a bit weird to collect $ 18M from t…

I guess I shouldn't have put the "human" in parentheses. I did give an example of how the EF is spending their money on development of the ecosystem though, hoping that'd make it clear what I meant. I even chose a grant to a wallet as the example. I personally prefer the role of the EF as a facilitator more than monolithic employer. And they can (and do) do facilitate in more ways than just handing out grants. It's j…

Thanks for your further reply! :)

> It's just they experience has shown that helping out this way for wallet development (or even more generically software development) works better.

Does it really work better from the perspective of a user though?

Because as a user I am now sitting in front of 24 websites which look equally "meh" in terms of trustworthiness (fancy design and huge claims), each of them trying to get me to hand out money to their software (that's what a wallet is about!), and almost all of them seemingly being for-profit companies which avoid listing their address.

A single 1 well-known website (EDIT: I meant wallet, not website) of a non-profit would "work better" for me as a user in terms of trusting my choice to keep my money safe. (If I had any, not buying ETH in this situation :)

> To add, they did start out providing the software as you say. After a certain point though, their efforts were outpaced by community effort or business opportunities arising in the Ethereum ecosystem.

Do you notice that you're actually arguing in favor of my point? :)

You say that their efforts were "outpaced", i.e. they failed. That's not a good thing to yield for $ 18 M :(

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#468

Post by joosters »

Karunamon wrote: post #388
pavlov wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Now imagine how bad it would be if the code handling this kind of money was on Ethereum where bugs are forever and failures irrevocable.

Now compare financial loss from bugs/hackers in smart contracts to financial loss from deception on the part of bankers, brokers, company execs, etc - the exact kind of fraud that's much harder to perpetrate with smart contracts. I'd wager the second number is and always will be orders of magnitude larger. Enron alone was responsible for ~$74bn of loss.

There's plenty of fraud going on with smart contracts and blockchains in general, and everyone knows it. In fact, it offers newer and easier ways to commit fraud. How many ICOs walked away with their investors' money? How many exchange and smart contract 'hacks' were actually insider jobs?

Just because crypto currency is a smaller market than traditional finance doesn't mean it's more honest. I'd imagine the % of fraudulent transactions in ethereum is worryingly high.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#470

Post by dheera »

louwrentius wrote: post #46

I don't understand this. I don't understand any of it. I don't understand cryptocurrencies. I don't understand what problems they really solve. > "Ethereum is open access to digital money and data-friendly services for everyone – no matter your background or location. It's a community-built technology behind the cryptocurrency ether (ETH) and thousands of applications you can use today." I can do all these things alr…

Moreover, why is ETH not mooning already with the new release? I thought not enough "mooning" was the main problem alt-coins solved ...
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