Ethereum 2.0 launches • Hacker News Board

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#191

Post by naringas » Tue, Dec 01, 2020, 2:46 PM UTC

tsujp wrote: post #33

naringas wrote: post #17

One thing I haven't been able to figure out about proof of stake is this: if one entity somehow manages to control over half to the total ETH tokens, does this enable an attack analogous to bitcoin's 51% problem (which happens when one miner controls over half of the network's raw cpu power)?

No. The required amount is greater than 2/3 (67%) not greater than 1/2 (51%) on PoS for Ethereum. Also, see this tweet from Vitalik: https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/130129808602782105... So even if there was a successful first attack from some organised body that's all the time they get.

> The required amount is greater than 2/3 (67%)

I'm not sure that's correct (the tweet doesn't get into any details so I went to ethereum's website https://ethereum.org/en/developers/docs/consensus-mechanisms...)

> The threat of a 51% attack still exists in proof-of-stake but it's even more risky for the attackers. To do so, you'd need to control 51% of the staked ETH. Not only is this a lot of money but it would probably cause ETH's value to drop. There's very little incentive to destroy the value of a currency you have a majority stake in. There are stronger incentives to keep the network secure and healthy.

The keypoint seems to be that if your attack fails your stake gets destroyed so besides the positive incentives (a good stable network working for all) this system also relies on punishing failed attacks.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#192

Post by RinTohsaka » Tue, Dec 01, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

louwrentius wrote: post #156

deif wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, you don't have to use it. A lot of people do prefer to use it for payments and receive payments in it though. They don't want a middle-man bank and would rather their transactions were trustlessly sent and received. At it's core cryptocurrency is a way to bypass banks if one was so inclined. Specifically currencies like Monero allow a person to send and receive payments completely anonymously, hence its…

That's a nice argument against cryptocurrencies. They enable darkweb sites like Silk Road and it's successors.

Yeah, but so does cash in the physical world. We shouldn't abolish cash tho.

Just because something can be used for "bad" doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. The internet also could be considered an enabler for sites like Silk Road, but its not gona get shut down for that reason.

So... the follow up question is, "Are there any good use cases?"

Yes, the biggest that comes to mind is it allows people who may be doing nothing wrong a payment system that cant be stoped. For example, someone of X religion could still make purchases in a society where religious freedom isn't allowed by its governing body.

May not be a concern for you today, but having the option for it is 100% I will support.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#193

Post by kingaillas » Tue, Dec 01, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #157

ForHackernews wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does any of this require ethereum? We have all kinds of markets already, ones that are much faster, more liquid and more efficient than any blockchain-backed exchanges. There's nothing stopping a recording artist from incorporating and listing shares on any traditional exchanges, or you from making a new exchange. Literally the only things Ethereum adds are decentralization and no way to dispute or reverse transa…

To trust a currency, you must trust the institutions that manage that currency. You have no control over it. To trust a cryptocurrency, you must trust the algorithm that runs it. It's fully auditable and predictable. It still takes me several business days to complete an ACH transaction in the US, and requires I trust the banking system. Transferring cryptocurrencies happen much faster and don't require the same kind…

>To trust a cryptocurrency, you must trust the algorithm that runs it. It's fully auditable and predictable.

What happens when Ethereum 2 inevitably hits a security bug, much like the ones Ethereum 1 hit that led to the DAO hack/theft (some might say... worked exactly as coded)?

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#194

Post by lentil_soup » Tue, Dec 01, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

ppf wrote: post #152

dbetteridge wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a personal level I to have no need or want of cryptocurrencies, but the stated benefits are not for first world, white, city dwellers with ready access to the existing monetary system. - Someone lives somewhere that the U.S refuses to bank with (Sanctions) - Someone who lives somewhere that simply has no financial infrastructure readily accessible and relies on prepaid cards for things like water and electricity (…

Tell me how someone living in Rural Africa can get any useful access to the Ethereum blockchain, without accepting a significant loss of expected benefits. Frankly, if we're going to be broadly racist and otherwise discriminatory about this, I would say that Ethereum and other blockchain systems are vanity projects for first world, white, city dwellers, with very little relevance for the rest of the world.

100% agree.

I come from a country with strong currency controls, US/EU sanctions, no access to international credit cards or money, and an almost 1000% inflation rate. No one cares about crypto currencies, everyone wants hard cash US Dollars, money you can actually use on the streets and hold in your hands. You don't want money that adds another layer of indirection and confusion that you somehow need to trust will get you groceries next time you go to the shops.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#195

Post by parksy » Tue, Dec 01, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

louwrentius wrote: post #138

markkat wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad, because I expected a comment like this to be the highest on HN. In the case of Ethereum, digital scarcity secured by a blockchain enables a turing complete state machine that the world can use. In the most basic terms, this will remove clearing houses for transactions of assets. In the long term this will lead to novel types of assets, and make ownership extremely liquid. Imagine using your phone to…

> In the case of Ethereum, digital scarcity secured by a blockchain enables a turing complete state machine that the world can use. Does this sentence actually mean anything? > In the most basic terms, this will remove clearing houses for transactions of assets. In the long term this will lead to novel types of assets, and make ownership extremely liquid. What does this mean in concrete terms? > Imagine using your ph…

Turing completeness in layman's terms means you can write programs on it.

Traditionally a computer that most people are familiar with is a single machine, like PC or the device we can hold in our hands. Etherium is a swarm of millions of computers that anyone can add to the swarm.

When people claim Ethereum is turing complete, it means that anyone can launch a program into it, and the "swarm" runs the program. But which node's output is the truth? Without some mechanism in place, a bad actor could claim to have computed an output that serves them greedily.

Ethereum has baked in protocols so that the distributed result of millions of nodes running a program reaches a stasticial consensus.

Being turing complete means that any computable program can run on Ethereum.

So you can imagine writing a program that, say, runs an auction, or performs escrow for contractors, or whatever. You could run doom on it, albeit at an extremely low framerate because you need the swarm to validate each frame.

I hope this explanation helps.

Edit: I swear autocomplete is becoming more forceful over time.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#196

Post by metalliqaz » Tue, Dec 01, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

mikro2nd wrote: post #60

louwrentius wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not looking for links to books. I'm looking for an explanation in plain English that shows why any of this matters.

The world needs a form of money that is not under the control of any one sovereign power or group of sovereigns. Understanding this may necessitate reading some books, but in short, sovereigns have historically proven to be untrustworthy, so a trust-free form of money is a powerful notion.

I would like to see a scenario where not one but several sovereign fiat currencies have utterly failed and yet ETH is still useful.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#197

Post by louwrentius » Tue, Dec 01, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

rjknight wrote: post #140

louwrentius wrote: post #46

I don't understand this. I don't understand any of it. I don't understand cryptocurrencies. I don't understand what problems they really solve. > "Ethereum is open access to digital money and data-friendly services for everyone – no matter your background or location. It's a community-built technology behind the cryptocurrency ether (ETH) and thousands of applications you can use today." I can do all these things alr…

This is a bit like saying that nobody needs a Linux desktop because Windows is good enough. Some people just care more than you do about certain principles, even if caring about those principles means that they have to endure a lower "quality" product. Most blockchains are strictly inferior to a modern financial system when it comes to things like speed and cost of transferring small sums of money - which is the use…

I don't understand why this topic is in any way relatable to the Linux vs. Windows discussion, even as an analogy.

> But, if you are running Wikileaks, blockchain payments are superior because the credit card companies can't decide to stop processing your payments.

That's not a good example to justify any of this, in my opinion.

> But there are situations in which it is difficult to get multiple parties to agree on a trustworthy host for data and applications, and current political trends point toward that problem growing in significance.

Such as?

I don't read anything I can relate to.

> Who knows? These scenarios are unlikely, but then nobody in 1995 would have believed that in 2020 both the majority of the world's servers and the world's most popular personal computing devices would run Linux.

I think that's just false equivalence.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#198

Post by nootropicat » Tue, Dec 01, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

louwrentius wrote: post #46

I don't understand this. I don't understand any of it. I don't understand cryptocurrencies. I don't understand what problems they really solve. > "Ethereum is open access to digital money and data-friendly services for everyone – no matter your background or location. It's a community-built technology behind the cryptocurrency ether (ETH) and thousands of applications you can use today." I can do all these things alr…

>What does this do for real-life applications?

You can lend dollars on ethereum for 4% APR at the moment. That's a good reason to use this even for someone not interested in other functions. The interest comes from borrowers, who are mostly speculators going long on crypto.

https://compound.finance/markets

USDC is tokenized dollar that can be swapped to/from dollars in a bank account on coinbase. Recently it was even used by the US Treasury to transfer dollars to Venezuela.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#199

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 01, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

tryptophan wrote: post #23

naringas wrote: post #17

One thing I haven't been able to figure out about proof of stake is this: if one entity somehow manages to control over half to the total ETH tokens, does this enable an attack analogous to bitcoin's 51% problem (which happens when one miner controls over half of the network's raw cpu power)?

Yes. But thats the point of PoS. Why would someone who owns >50% of something want to destroy it? Literally hurting yourself more just to hurt others a lesser amount.

[deleted]

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#200

Post by SCHiM » Tue, Dec 01, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #170

faitswulff wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the benefit of not having to trust world governments or their currencies isn't that compelling for most people, who I presume almost universally already participate in said social contracts.

I certainly trust world governments more than some random Internet community. Who's to say the whole thing isn't a scam? Has this tech been independently audited?

If you can break this scheme you can steal billions of dollars worth of currencies right now. If that is not independently audited by all evil hackers out there I don't know what is :)