No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#311

Post by eropple » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #308

w45673456354 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And autoimmune conditions, robbing a list from wikipedia: celiac disease, diabetes mellitus type 1, Graves' disease, inflammatory bowel disease, multiple sclerosis, psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, and systemic lupus erythematosus. I don't know how many people with conditions take immunosuppression medication. I take it for arthritis and alopecia and have come across many people on similar meds for diabetes or other…

Does this mean the vaccine wont be given to people with psoriasis?

It means it hasn't been, and thus needs more study in that regard.

My inexpert understanding is that mRNA vaccines such as this one are unlikely to have an impact on many autoimmune cases. In many, perhaps most, others, it appears from my reading to be likely that the generated interferons are not adding anything to the likelihood of developing an autoimmune condition that wouldn't eventually already happen. (It might be the nudge over the cliff, but so might have the next common cold you catch.) But it should be tested to understand, regardless.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#312

Post by noneeeed » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

raducu wrote: post #280

rjsw wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a suggestion that people with autoimmune conditions were more likely to get "long COVID".

What is "long covid"? People experiencing long term symptoms? I can believe that, my tinnitus after covid-19 is still there, even if I don't notice it as much. Actual viral infection? I really doubt that, thoug perhaps it could hide like the herpes virus.

The first. Long lingering after effects. For some they are fairly minor, but for many they seem to be quite tough, with significant problems doing any kind of physical activity.

At the moment it's all quite nebulous, with a lot of anecdote and not enough data. But there are some studies starting up that might start to untangle what's going on.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#313

Post by mikeyouse » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

CyberRabbi wrote: post #274

LgWoodenBadger wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"benefit of a few" meaning "allow those few that were adversely affected to sue for damages" which would have the follow-on effect of hampering vaccine development

How can a vaccine have an adverse effect? Vaccines are safe

Vaccines are like 99.999% safe.. but we do give them to more than 100k people per year, so some people do suffer some unfortunate side effects including and up to seizures and brain damage. We've decided as a society that the benefits of widespread vaccination outweigh the legal rights of those harmed by their administration, so we've legislated away the ability to sue vaccine manufacturers for good-faith efforts at developing and administering vaccines.

I will gladly line up for the Covid vaccine and I'll definitely be vaccinating my children, but there is a remote risk of harm.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#314

Post by talentedcoin » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

wait_a_minute wrote: post #296

talentedcoin wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You first. More seriously, this is one of those situations where the short-term pluses are plain to see, but the long-term risks are vague. Why not employ the precautionary principle here?

Instead of simply alluding to long-term risks, can you be more specific about what exactly you're concerned about? What kind of precautions are you advocating? At some point medical technology will give us organs that are far superior to biological organs - should we not make these available to people?

It really depends what we're talking about here. Specific to your comments I can think of a couple things:

1) In terms of organ replacement, I agree it's a great opportunity -- but, we really won't or can't know the full spectrum of risks right away. Thalidomide, for example, was (for the most part) believed to be safe in the mid-50s, and it wasn't until the early 60s that awareness of the issues began to set in. So I am being a bit facetious when I say "you first" -- if it suits your risk tolerance or if you are in exigent circumstances, sure thing, who am I to judge? But it doesn't suit my personal risk tolerance at this point in my life. (Maybe ask me in a few years when I'm old and sick ...)

2) In terms of "transhumanism" more generally ... I see great dangers and I fear what a society of transhumans combined with humans would be capable of (if we haven't started down that road already). If transhumans really become vastly superior to humans, what will the relationship between them and the old-stock humans look like? Yuval Noah Hariri said something to the effect of, the only model for this version of the world we have is the current relationship between humans and animals -- the track record there is not exactly great ...

So, it's partially the risks from the tech itself, and partially the downstream consequences for society.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#315

Post by estebank » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

totony wrote: post #300

DanBC wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Not everyone can get the vaccine. We don't know yet if the vaccine is 100% effective (although it does look very good).

>Not everyone can get the vaccine. But the proportion of people who are both at risk and can't get the vaccine (and alternatives) must be small (from intuitive maths, I actually haven't looked into this). Why would this vaccine be mandatory while plenty of other aren't? E.g. I've never got flu-tested before a concert/the flu shot, even though it could pass to other people/kill people. I'm wondering where's the line b…

From https://www.goodrx.com/blog/flu-vs-coronavirus-mortality-and...

          2017-2018 Flu  2018-2019 Flu  COVID-19 as of August 27, 2020
  Cases   45 million     35 million     5 million
  Deaths  61,000         34,157         180,000+

Further reading on how the flu and COVID-19 differ: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/season/faq-flu-season-2020-2021.htm

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#316

Post by orblivion » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

projektfu wrote: post #301

orblivion wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested in unpopular opinions here. Do you have a source or details on this?

AZD1222, the AstraZeneca covid vaccine, uses an adenoviral vector to deliver DNA to human cells that then produce the desired viral proteins to present to the immune system. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

This is a bit much for me to read without the right background. I'll focus on your claim, though.

"Sending mRNA to human cells to produce viral proteins" describe how all of the other vaccines work. You're saying that this one uses DNA. I don't know if that's a typo or if that's an important difference. However from what I understand, the two other vaccines people are talking about don't change any of the genetic material in your cells. They just send other genetic material that makes use of the translation equipment in some of your cells. It sits next to your existing genetic material, and then (I'm guessing?) just goes away.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#317

Post by DanBC » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

totony wrote: post #300

DanBC wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Not everyone can get the vaccine. We don't know yet if the vaccine is 100% effective (although it does look very good).

>Not everyone can get the vaccine. But the proportion of people who are both at risk and can't get the vaccine (and alternatives) must be small (from intuitive maths, I actually haven't looked into this). Why would this vaccine be mandatory while plenty of other aren't? E.g. I've never got flu-tested before a concert/the flu shot, even though it could pass to other people/kill people. I'm wondering where's the line b…

You've mentioned "Low risk" a few times. You're right, the risk for young people is low. That doesn't mean no-risk though. There are plenty of examples of young people suffering harm because of covid.

A TIA at 23 isn't a trivial thing. https://twitter.com/RileyBehrens/status/1333230792206553089?...

At the moment we think covid is at least ten times more lethal than flu. If you're comparing numbers of people killed you need to make sure you're counting death the same way, and most people aren't doing that.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

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Post by lokar » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #196

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, agreed. My selfish concern is then whether or not the vaccine will work for them.

Unfortunately, vaccines can't really help immunocompromised people, as their immune system is simply unable to fight off any infection, regardless of whether it recognizes the infection or not (of course, this may be a matter of degrees). That is why, for example, people with advanced AIDS can die from essentially any pathogen.

Transplant recipients (which must be on suppressants for life) can and do take vaccines and they work. They generally can't take live virus vaccines, but that's about it AFAIK.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#319

Post by lokar » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #83

mrjaeger wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can read all of them in their published protocol at https://www.modernatx.com/sites/default/files/mRNA-1273-P301... under section 5.2.

Relevant criteria for the question "does it it exclude old, fragile people with various common pre-existing conditions?" (not exhaustive, but indicative): Included: Pre-existing conditions are okay as long as they are in a stable condition (defined as no significant change in therapy etc for the 3 months before enrollment). Excluded: Immunosuppressive or immunodeficient state, asplenia, recurrent severe infections (H…

Almost 40,000 people got an organ transplant in the US in 2019

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#320

Post by amelius » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #182

blhack wrote: post #48

Does anybody have a good link for a layman's overview of how mRNA vaccines work? Lot's of nervousness from people around this, and would love to be able to help quell some of that.

Ahh, yes, ModeRNA's vaccine is some very clever stuff. The way that one works is a bit complex. Essentially, they still want your immune system to recognize that the virus is bad and then make antibodies against it. Usually, you inject broken up bits of a dead virus into a person. The immune system sees the foreign objects, and makes antibodies against it. Withe ModeRNA's vaccine, we go inside out. You have the body…

> Through some complex bio-chem, the mRNA that codes for the spike protein gets into your cells

Is this bio-chem designed by Moderna, or is it just a property of the mRNA? Does all mRNA follow the same path into the cell?