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The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

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Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#61

It's funny because my Persian friends describe that their relatives expect taarof to be a thing elsewhere. Here's an example: my friend was not in the mood for breakfast. The host took it as a sign that he was taarofing. He insisted that he wasn't. His persistence was seen as a sign that he really wants breakfast. The only way to make it stop while being polite was to take a bite. He was furious!

Does taarof have anything like an "safe word", that lets you be 100% clear that you mean what you're saying? It sounds from your story that the answer is no, but I wonder if it's different between close friends or family members where there's less pressure to be impeccably polite.

as far as I know, there is a non-formal rule of three. If someone is refusing three times with the same "degree" of refusal, then they actually don't want it.

There is of course also "Be khoda tarof nemikonam" which is "I swear to god I am not tarofing", after this it is usually acceptable/expected to stop it.

Edit: Article also mentions the rule of three

> There is an unwritten rule of two or three rounds of offering and refusing in taarof.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#63

I am Iranian, and I have to admit, taarof has been an interesting subject in my social interactions. With other Iranians, I have no problem reading and sending social cues; with non-Iranians taarof makes me come off as super nice and kind. But what happened, when people repeatedly took me on on my taarofs, I grew silently very spiteful and distanced myself from them. If a guest is staying late we never ask them to le…

> I grew silently very spiteful and distanced myself from them.

I didn't think someone else would reinforce my points throughout the thread. Thanks for your experience; sorry you had to go through this, and it's great to see someone else embrace a more direct approach.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#64
To those who say Iranians are not sincerely hospitable to foreigners, and that they are practicing Tarof. As an Iranian I can assure you this is not the case. Iranians love foreigners, to a fault, to the point that I have felt discriminated against in my own country.

Here is a little anecdote. I once saw a baker giving free samples to some tourists. I was there at the bazar to buy some souvenirs, so I decided to also try a sample, only to be told that “they do not give out samples”. Funny thing is, the tourists didn’t even want a sample while I had approached him with the explicit intention to buy (which I decided against after his treatment). But I don’t think he really cared as long as he got to have a positive interaction with the tourists.

I suspect a big factor contributing to this culture is how the Iranian public have been isolated, due to both the sanctions from the outside, and the Iranian government from the inside, to the point that foreigners are regarded as exotic people to be treated better than “ordinary” locals.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#65
> Once I paid a Tehran taxi driver 250,000 rials for the ride, a fare we had previously agreed on after a hard-fought negotiation. Oddly, the money was refused.

> “Ghabel nadare,” he said smiling, indicating that he wouldn’t accept it.

> Scratching my head, I insisted. Again he protested. Giving up, I thanked him in Farsi and left the vehicle with a grin on my face. “All is well,” I thought, incredulously.

> “He was taarofing,” my friend Reza later explained. “Of course he expected you to pay. And you should have insisted more.

This is confusing, I say that as a Pakistani whose culture also has Taarof. Here is a TED talk[1] by someone with Persian parent and she states in this talk that a shopper, by insisting to pay for an item, insulted the shopkeeper.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Trdafp83U

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#66

I am Iranian, and I have to admit, taarof has been an interesting subject in my social interactions. With other Iranians, I have no problem reading and sending social cues; with non-Iranians taarof makes me come off as super nice and kind. But what happened, when people repeatedly took me on on my taarofs, I grew silently very spiteful and distanced myself from them. If a guest is staying late we never ask them to le…

Seinfeld The Pen: Part1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Vm_ksWreM Part2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrvSKIfccwQ

This sort of thing could also make a great "Darmok"-style Star Trek episode for Data

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#67

Tarof is so infuriating that, if you are a foreigner who wants to learn Persian, going to Tajikistan instead might be recommended: I don't know if the practice never quite existed there in such an extreme form, or the Soviets stamped it out, but communicating with Tajiks is always so much more straightforward than with Iranians. What always apalls me is foreigners traveling in Iran who rave about how hospitable the l…

Wow, I very strongly disagree. First of all, as for learning the language, I have no idea why taarof would be an impediment. I mean, I guess if your plan is to exchange a handful of words with a ton of different people, taarof might make up a noticeable portion of your communication, but in language learning it's far better to speak with fewer people and try to have longer conversations. Otherwise you'll never move p…

...and not some mass of efficiently-communicating Soylent-drinking robots. <- That made me smile :)

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#68

> In the world of taarof, politeness holds the place of honour. In its name, people refuse when they want to accept, say what is not meant, express what is not felt, invite when it is not intended, replace bad news with false hope. By doing so, they try to say what they “wished it were” – without ever admitting that it isn’t. Maybe it’s my Americanism, but I’m absolutely happy this is not how it works here. “Yes is y…

When Americans say "how are you?", think about how often there is no interest whatsoever in the reply, or, how often the reply is not truthful.

I was 2 months into my first job in the US when I worked out that my manager used "How are you?" as a greeting, no different from "Hello". No answer was actually expected.

It felt odd not to answer a question asked of me, but I'm used to it now.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#69

> In the world of taarof, politeness holds the place of honour. In its name, people refuse when they want to accept, say what is not meant, express what is not felt, invite when it is not intended, replace bad news with false hope. By doing so, they try to say what they “wished it were” – without ever admitting that it isn’t. Maybe it’s my Americanism, but I’m absolutely happy this is not how it works here. “Yes is y…

I think this "taarof" exists in varying degrees in all cultures. In the USA it is obviously less extreme but still exists in some scenarios.

For example, people routinely ask "how are you?" as a polite greeting without actually caring (or wanting) to hear about the deeply personal thoughts of another person's feelings.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#70

Tarof is so infuriating that, if you are a foreigner who wants to learn Persian, going to Tajikistan instead might be recommended: I don't know if the practice never quite existed there in such an extreme form, or the Soviets stamped it out, but communicating with Tajiks is always so much more straightforward than with Iranians. What always apalls me is foreigners traveling in Iran who rave about how hospitable the l…

Having visited Iran by myself and having had the pleasure of being invited to join strangers in several cities to meet their friends and join them for meals at their homes, I found this a bit depressing to read. Would Iranians expect foreigners to understand and play along? Surely not. I definitely didn't perceive that the invitations were anything but sincere at the time, but now I'll never know for sure.

> Having visited Iran by myself and having had the pleasure of being invited to join strangers in several cities to meet their friends and join them for meals at their homes, I found this a bit depressing to read.

Oh man, I found your comment depressing to read (though I'm glad you wrote it). It's so frustrating to see one comment like that do so much damage. Ignore the comment you replied to.

For anyone traveling in Iran: with one semi-exception (the case where you have a local translator; see below [1]), if they're are inviting you over, they're really, truly, genuinely happy to have you as a guest. Not only is hospitality just ingrained in the culture (even after taking this stuff into account), but as a foreigner, nobody will think negatively of you in any way for accepting their offer (and this applies even in the case of that caveat [1]). They'll be very delighted for you to say yes. It's really that simple.

The people who need to worry about this already know who they are. (e.g., local relatives/acquaintances who already live in the same community and know they're playing in the same game.) If you have to ask if it applies to you, it doesn't apply to you. End of story.

For more mundane offers about things other than being a guest, you may have to rely more on your common sense and not take initial things at face value, but it's not that complicated, and it'll still be hard to offend people if you miss here unless you're completely clueless. Say, if you go by something and try to pay and they tell you "oh don't worry about it, you're welcome", either they really mean it, or they don't and you should pay anyway (like you would anywhere else on the planet). Though even if you take it literally and walk without paying, they'll figure it was their mistake and not yours. Unless you were buying something ridiculously expensive like a car/jewelry/etc...

[1] The one semi-caveat to this I can think of is if you have a local translator with you. In that case, yes, chances are the offer might not be intended to be taken literally, and they might play the game expecting the translator to play along or convey (or have conveyed) things to you in an intelligible manner. And if the translator fails, they might get a bit turned off by the translator. But in that case, it'd be concerning the translator, not you. And honestly even in that case if the translator has any common sense they will pick up any relevant cues later and relay them to you at some point. (Say, if they invite you over for lunch and then ask you to stay for dinner, the translator will very quickly realize if the dinner offer is sincere or not, and let you know.)

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