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New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

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Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#141
post #123
post #66

I'll tell ya what I see: no rollers. Pins rubbing (wearing) both sides of the tooth. Including the back side, which will never exert any forward longitudinal force on a chain unless it's made of magnets. I also see a highly suspect FEA diagram on the right, where teeth not even engaged still show non-zero stresses (lighter blue, not the darkest blue), indicating that the color/stress scale has been changed compared t…

I don't know anything about FEA, but in reading this article and thinking it through, was the first time it hit me how bad a conventional chain and sprocket is. On a brand-new set with perfect tolerances, you might be able to use many of the front side of many of the teeth, but as SOON as the chain begins to stretch (wear) even fractionally, most of the stress goes to the 'first' teeth in any given power stroke, and…

Bike chain teeth do not have straight sides or a convolute profile. They are wedges that act as ramps for the rollers. As the chain wears, it is no longer possible for the rollers to all sit at the base of the teeth. Instead, to account for the increased pin-pin distance, they begin to ride 'up' the teeth at the point of first engagement. You can easily see this when looking at a worn cassette used with a stretched chain. The tooth profiles become sharply hooked as the roller wear works in from the 'side' of the tooth. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFYuxlJXYAA89-b.jpg Note that the lowest point of the profile remains at the original base of the tooth, and then is angled up.

In a worn chain, the rollers engage high up, and then work their way down (under high load) until seated at the base. In the unworn condition, engagement begins at the base of the tooth where the forces are better spread over the roller.

In point of fact, the forces are spread out over more teeth when worn. The first tooth engagement might begin 3mm high, then 2.5mm, then 2mm, etc. over ~6 teeth. Whereas the fresh chain might manage 2 or 3. But the wear and friction of the worn chain is much higher as you have a great deal of motion under high load as the loaded rollers creep down. The unworn chain has perhaps higher loads, but the roller is essentially seated and immobile at the base of the gear for this.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#142
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess I'm a bit (to use one of Bike Snob NYC's favorite words) nonplussed. JK Rowling taught me that nonplussed is apparently a part of the daily vernacular in the UK.

I like how it can mean either 'confused' or 'unimpressed' which in certain situations can almost be opposites of each other. But both apply to me with this chain system!

Nonplussed means “so confused that you are completely paralyzed”. Think deer stopped in headlights.

Rough synonyms: confounded, flummoxed, bewildered, perplexed, stunned, shocked, dumbfounded, flabbergasted, thunderstruck.

Using nonplussed to mean “unimpressed” or “apathetic” will leave listeners both unimpressed and confused.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#143
post #11

I really don't get it: what power are they claiming to be transferring on the side of the tooth that isn't engaging with a roller chain? Also note that this is only for track bikes with a perfectly straight chainline (technically speaking it would also work for internal gear hubs wish are increasingly driven by belts in the upper price range). The shifting chain that is deployed diagonally more often than straight is…

Internal hubs are amazing and so great to use, until you get a puncture. It’s such a nightmare and I went through so many of those dumb proprietary nuts that strip so easily. Bikes like the Cannondale Bad Boy have got me thinking, what if the single fork was at the rear? Then you could have an internal hub and change the tube without the extra suffering. Yes, the loading at the read would be significantly greater, bu…

The Strida Evo works like that: hub gears, but both wheels are single fork.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#144
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internal hubs are amazing and so great to use, until you get a puncture. It’s such a nightmare and I went through so many of those dumb proprietary nuts that strip so easily. Bikes like the Cannondale Bad Boy have got me thinking, what if the single fork was at the rear? Then you could have an internal hub and change the tube without the extra suffering. Yes, the loading at the read would be significantly greater, bu…

Oh god. I have a Ghost commuter bike with belt drive (came with Continental, but it broke and couldn't be replaced, so it was swapped to gates). Not only is a it a huge pain in the ass to carry two identical heavy wrenches in case you have to remove the wheel+belt in the field, and tension is hard to get right even at home, but of course the cable is extremely hard to remove the first handful of times (and which gear…

Do you know you don't have to remove the wheel to repair a puncture ? Remove one side of the tire from the rim and pull the inner tube, then patch it.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#145
Tolerance high need. Stretch or fracture.. no longer optimal. Current chains.. been working for over a hundred and fifty years and we all know how to fix em and oil em. So for the 2% improvement hero, sure. For me? Less sure. (I ride a clunker i put a Brookes leather saddle on, now it fits my bum cheeks I'm good)

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#146

it does look more durable with all the the added metal but how could that make it faster? but either way, I never had durability issues with my bike chains (including motorcycles), specially when you can adjust for "stretching"

Higher efficiency means more power from the cranks is going to the wheels. But this looks like something primarily for high power situations right now where those tiny gains matter more. Durability wise it will be great for ebikes as they eat up drive trains more so this should reduce cost of ownership in the long term.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#147
post #66

I'll tell ya what I see: no rollers. Pins rubbing (wearing) both sides of the tooth. Including the back side, which will never exert any forward longitudinal force on a chain unless it's made of magnets. I also see a highly suspect FEA diagram on the right, where teeth not even engaged still show non-zero stresses (lighter blue, not the darkest blue), indicating that the color/stress scale has been changed compared t…

If this chain is truly more efficient and/or durable, I would expect them to be selling to two specific markets: - BMX: This market would be all over anything that would be an improvement in durability, and frankly a percentage would just do it for the different tooth design. - Auto: Admittedly, the site for the company that is making this new chain mentions automotive in a blog post, but I don't see anything specifi…

Tangent: BMW has developed a new diamond-coated chain for motorcycles which they claim requires no regular maintenance. (Motorcycle chains, which are external and near the ground, have to be cleaned and re-lubricated every 300-500 miles for maximum life.)

https://www.bmwblog.com/2020/08/27/m-endurance-motorbike-cha...

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#148
post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

Any idea of the sustainability of the Gates Carbon Drive system? Looks like it's made of polymer + carbon fiber. On the other hand, traditional chains eat+shed oil and grease.

Mine is 5 years old still going strong and I commute everyday. But check this guy https://www.cyclingabout.com/belt-drive-best-bicycle-drivetr...

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#149
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internal hubs are amazing and so great to use, until you get a puncture. It’s such a nightmare and I went through so many of those dumb proprietary nuts that strip so easily. Bikes like the Cannondale Bad Boy have got me thinking, what if the single fork was at the rear? Then you could have an internal hub and change the tube without the extra suffering. Yes, the loading at the read would be significantly greater, bu…

I don't think internal hubs are amazing :) Derailer systems only absord energy in the chain and bearings, and a well maintained system can maybe lose 1.5% of energy. Internal hub gearing can lose around 15% energy. The shop keeper won't tell you this, he just wants to sell you a bike. If he starts talking difficult things, buyers might just go to the next shop to buy what they had already chosen.

Internal hubs are amazing for the kind of bike that's always outside and gets maintenance beyond occasional tire pumping about as often as summer olympics are opened. Unfortunately SRAM stopped production of the T3 years ago, it was the perfect drive for a low maintenance, low value practical utility bike, providing the easy 80% of everything you want from bicycle gears for short distance commuting. Derailleur systems receiving a similar lack of maintenance are what turns people into short distance drivers.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#150
post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

> Europe has largely adopted it

I live in a very bike-friendly European town. I use my bike daily. I have seen maybe 10 if these things in the last 3 years, mostly owned by elderly people who were sold high-end e-bikes they don't need.

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