New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable • Hacker News Board

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#121

Post by to11mtm » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:46 PM UTC

rdiddly wrote: post #66

I'll tell ya what I see: no rollers. Pins rubbing (wearing) both sides of the tooth. Including the back side, which will never exert any forward longitudinal force on a chain unless it's made of magnets. I also see a highly suspect FEA diagram on the right, where teeth not even engaged still show non-zero stresses (lighter blue, not the darkest blue), indicating that the color/stress scale has been changed compared t…

If this chain is truly more efficient and/or durable, I would expect them to be selling to two specific markets:

- BMX: This market would be all over anything that would be an improvement in durability, and frankly a percentage would just do it for the different tooth design.

- Auto: Admittedly, the site for the company that is making this new chain mentions automotive in a blog post, but I don't see anything specific to an automotive product. A more durable and efficient timing chain is something I'd expect most of the automakers to care about.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#122

Post by FridgeSeal » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

forest_dweller wrote: post #119

Every so many years I see a post like this where they claim to have improved the drive chain of bicycles and they really never go anywhere, mainly because they aren't compatible with other kit. I've built and repaired quite a few push bikes over the years I am still using fairly standard shimano kit. The problem with exotic equipment is that even decent shops might not be able to repair it and it normally requires sp…

As a mountain biker primarily, chasing marginal gains on chain improvements seems strange to me.

Chains are a wear item, and small gains in the efficiency are going to be lost pretty quickly after the first few times it’s been ground through mud, sand and grit, which will take all of one ride.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#123

Post by rconti » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

rdiddly wrote: post #66

I'll tell ya what I see: no rollers. Pins rubbing (wearing) both sides of the tooth. Including the back side, which will never exert any forward longitudinal force on a chain unless it's made of magnets. I also see a highly suspect FEA diagram on the right, where teeth not even engaged still show non-zero stresses (lighter blue, not the darkest blue), indicating that the color/stress scale has been changed compared t…

I don't know anything about FEA, but in reading this article and thinking it through, was the first time it hit me how bad a conventional chain and sprocket is. On a brand-new set with perfect tolerances, you might be able to use many of the front side of many of the teeth, but as SOON as the chain begins to stretch (wear) even fractionally, most of the stress goes to the 'first' teeth in any given power stroke, and the same spot on the chain. I imagine if you're putting, say, 1000w through 2 teeth and 2-4 chain endplates, wear is an order of magnitude higher than if you're able to effectively transfer power through double the teeth and endplates.

Likely the "pins rubbing" you mention doesn't really matter, because the wear from inserting and removing the chain as it cycles around has to be a miniscule fraction of the wear that occurs under load.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#124

Post by justinator » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:51 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #26

usrusr wrote: post #11

I really don't get it: what power are they claiming to be transferring on the side of the tooth that isn't engaging with a roller chain? Also note that this is only for track bikes with a perfectly straight chainline (technically speaking it would also work for internal gear hubs wish are increasingly driven by belts in the upper price range). The shifting chain that is deployed diagonally more often than straight is…

Internal hubs are amazing and so great to use, until you get a puncture. It’s such a nightmare and I went through so many of those dumb proprietary nuts that strip so easily. Bikes like the Cannondale Bad Boy have got me thinking, what if the single fork was at the rear? Then you could have an internal hub and change the tube without the extra suffering. Yes, the loading at the read would be significantly greater, bu…

You don’t always have to take a wheel off to fix a flat with a patch and completely tubeless setups are fairly commonplace now.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#125

Post by rconti » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:52 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #26

usrusr wrote: post #11

I really don't get it: what power are they claiming to be transferring on the side of the tooth that isn't engaging with a roller chain? Also note that this is only for track bikes with a perfectly straight chainline (technically speaking it would also work for internal gear hubs wish are increasingly driven by belts in the upper price range). The shifting chain that is deployed diagonally more often than straight is…

Internal hubs are amazing and so great to use, until you get a puncture. It’s such a nightmare and I went through so many of those dumb proprietary nuts that strip so easily. Bikes like the Cannondale Bad Boy have got me thinking, what if the single fork was at the rear? Then you could have an internal hub and change the tube without the extra suffering. Yes, the loading at the read would be significantly greater, bu…

Oh god. I have a Ghost commuter bike with belt drive (came with Continental, but it broke and couldn't be replaced, so it was swapped to gates). Not only is a it a huge pain in the ass to carry two identical heavy wrenches in case you have to remove the wheel+belt in the field, and tension is hard to get right even at home, but of course the cable is extremely hard to remove the first handful of times (and which gear you have to be in changes from hub to hub), ... but my Ghost had a disc brake caliper located such that the caliper had to be removed in order to remove the rear wheel (the disc cannot just side out of the caliper, it hits the caliper body itself). Ugh.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#126

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:54 PM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #99

rdiddly wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how it can mean either 'confused' or 'unimpressed' which in certain situations can almost be opposites of each other. But both apply to me with this chain system!

I (a Brit) was confused by the apparent use to mean "unimpressed" but I stumbled upon this: > Note: The use of nonplussed to mean "unimpressed" is an Americanism that has become increasingly common in recent decades and now appears frequently in published writing. It apparently arose from confusion over the meaning of nonplussed in ambiguous contexts, and it continues to be widely regarded as an error. https://www.me…

Well I (a Brit) have only ever understood it to mean 'not sufficiently impressed to know what to say'; in a sort of bemusement or indecision as to one's reaction. A sort of confusion as to how unimpressed one is. The Collins dictionary I have to hand doesn't capture that nuance though.

I actively try to avoid USAmericanisms, except for "y'all". Go figure ;o)

[That last phrase is a USAmericanism, used for amusing intent.]

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#127

Post by jiofih » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:57 PM UTC

FpUser wrote: post #85

owenversteeg wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the Netherlands and have traveled Europe very extensively and I have never seen one single belt driven bike... I have a feeling that it'll be a long time before Europe widely adopts them :) Does look very cool, though.

I've seen quite a few of those here in Toronto. One owner I've spoken to actually said that it has noticeably higher friction. I did not try those bikes myself so can not really confirm/deny.

It has higher friction at low speeds, but has better power transfer than a chain once up to speed.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#128

Post by simooooo » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

pandemic_region wrote: post #84

pierot wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, but you can see those from time to time Belgium. Largely adopted? No, not at all.

Cube has one https://www.cube.eu/en/2020/bikes/urban/hyde/cube-hyde-pro-b... , I bought the 2018 model it's really nice and convenient to drive. Going back to traditional chain once you drove one of these may be similar to automatic vs manual gear shift in a car, why would you? Note: I'm a casual cyclist.

Nicolai make some nice ones

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#129

Post by jiofih » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

leoh wrote: post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

As a counterpoint to all the other comments: EU, my electric bike has a belt. Most high end electrics do. Might not be the same outside of the cycle countries (nl, dk...).

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#130

Post by rconti » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

leoh wrote: post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

I've got a belt-drive "commuter bike" that doesn't get ridden much these days. It currently has a Gates Carbon Drive which I mostly like, and you're mostly correct. But it came with a Continental belt drive system that was awful. I snapped my first belt on it under load when it was about 6 months old. The damn thing always squeaked no matter how clean i tried to keep it. The rear wheel had to be on perfectly straight or sometimes the belt would slip one way or the other -- and of course, belt tension is very hard to get right. I think the gates system operates at lower tension than my continental did, which is a plus.

I hope the Gates belt is stronger than the Continental one, but I don't know for sure.

I think Ghost ultimately was willing to goodwill replace the continental trash with a complete Gates drive system because a continental belt could not be sourced anymore. But, I still have to worry about the nightmare of axle nuts, belt tension, removing the tiny nut from the hub to disconnect the shifting, and removing the brake caliper (!!!) to fix a flat.