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Is Probability Real?

arameb.com

61–70 of 227 posts

Re: Is Probability Real?

#61

> The scientific method only works because the rules of the universe happen to be simple, while the set of observations it offers is vast. Kolmogorov complexity captures this defining characteristic of our reality. I've never seen this spelled out so beautifully!

The patterns in our observations appear simple, the rules are deeper: e.g. newtonian motion vs relativistic.

Re: Is Probability Real?

#62
Mostly well argued, but there's some very loose language, such as calling "inconsistencies" mere practical relevance issues (such as nonideal markets, nonprobabilistic decisions, ignorance and the ensuing arbitrage, changes in probability values). A bad theory can be logically inconsistent, but it is not the case of probability theory and its competing interpretations.

Re: Is Probability Real?

#64

Tow things. First, probability is real: it's a construct in one's mind, and minds are just as real as dice or coins. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/f6ZLxEWaankRZ2Crv/probabilit... Second, (and the author may be leading up to this), there's Solomonoff's theory of inductive inference, which he has proven complete : when we apply Occam's razor (where the prior probability of each possible theory drops exponentially wit…

> the amount of error a perfect Bayesian makes as they observe event and bet on the next one, ad infinitum, is finite. There's a little assumption that you're leaving out, namely that the Kolmogorov complexity of the data generating process is finite . From Wikipedia: > expected cumulative errors made by the predictions based on Solomonoff's induction are upper-bounded by the Kolmogorov complexity of the (stochastic)…

If quantum is really random, then our universe has infinite Kolmogorov complexity.

Re: Is Probability Real?

#65
I don't think "first forty digits of pi" should be admissible. As it depends on an external definition that's not computed by the representation. I could come up with a mathematical definition for any prefix of digits, give it a name and say the 'first x digits of C'.

Re: Is Probability Real?

#66
Since the lowest levels of our understanding of the universe are probabilistic, it seems reasonable to assume probability is the most real thing we currently know. It might be that will change some day, but at the moment everything we take to be non-probabilistic is just a simplification of underlying probabilities.

Re: Is Probability Real?

#67
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I just can't agree with the parent statement that probability has nothing to do with the object it describes, which is demonstrably false.

I don't think it's demonstrably false: If you don't know that the coin is weighted, the probability is 50%. Probabilities are predictions and estimates, not fundamentally about the thing itself, but about what we know about the thing.

> If you don't know that the coin is weighted, the probability is 50%.

No, if it's weighted it's not 50%. Your prior probability is 50%, but neither a Bayesian nor a frequentist would claim the true probability is known before testing.

Re: Is Probability Real?

#68

> The scientific method only works because the rules of the universe happen to be simple, while the set of observations it offers is vast. Kolmogorov complexity captures this defining characteristic of our reality. I've never seen this spelled out so beautifully!

[deleted]

Re: Is Probability Real?

#69
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simple sentence that I've found useful for pedagogy: "the probability of that coin toss being 50% does not talk about the coin; it talks about you , and about your partial knowledge of the universe." You can add: "The coin toss itself is deterministic and the result can be computed if you know the initial position and speed." They will inevitably bother you about the physical impossibility to measure the starting p…

Wigner's friend might have something to say about this... I don't have a specific argument to make here, only the feeling that if it were all just a matter of what a given observer knows, no-one would be talking about there being a QM measurement problem.

This is a very good point!

In fact, some people do argue that there is no measurement problem in the Copenhagen formulation of quantum mechanics to begin with – at least if you take it seriously and strictly go by the rule that the laws laid down by Bohr et al. only concern you as the observer and your knowledge about the system, and not the system itself. Following this train of thought, there is nothing "real" about the wavefunction and it is just a tool to come up with predictions. The same goes for the collapse of the wave function (which just describes a change in your ability to predict future measurements, and not a change of the object) and the term "measurement" (which we might as well replace with "enlightenment", i.e. the moment in which we obtain knowledge about the system).

In that sense, the only difference between classical and quantum mechanics is that our knowledge (viewed as a mathematical quantity) behaves differently in both theories: In classical physics, when we conduct multiple measurements of a given system in a row, our knowledge about that system will increase – to the point that, once we have measured all system properties to sufficient accuracy, we'll able to predict what any future measurement of any of those properties will yield (again, with some predictable uncertainty). So the knowledge of all our measurements has added up, it is an additive quantity.

In QM, this is fundamentally different: We can only know anything about the object the very moment we look at it. The rules of quantum mechanics (again, in the very strict interpretation laid out above) dictate that the second we conduct a measurement, we can forget about any knowledge obtained through previous measurements of other (conjugate) observables: Future measurements of those observables are inherently unpredictable. In that sense, our knowledge about quantum-mechanical objects never "adds up" to anything. (To see that this is really the the distinguishing feature between classical and quantum mechanics, recall that the existence of conjugate observables really is the only thing setting apart the quantum from the classical world: Without conjugate observables it would be impossible to distinguish, say, 100 electrons in a superposition of spin up and down from an ensemble of 100 electrons of which 50 are in a spin up state and the other 50 are in a spin down state.)

Of course, this whole interpretation is very unsatisfactory to lots of people (myself included) for a whole bunch of reasons. I assume that, to a large degree, this is due to the fact that laws of nature that put human observers in their very center seem rather undesirable. (At least since the time we switched from a geocentric to a heliocentric view of the world.)

But my impression is that there's another reason: Our intuition from classical mechanics & statistics has taught us that objects exist independently of us as observers and behave in a deterministic fashion, at least provided we as observers know enough about them. (Meaning that the more we know about the coin's initial position and velocity, the more likely we are to predict the outcome of the coin toss. If we don't know anything about the coin, though, the outcome is as unpredictable as measuring spin up/down in quantum mechanics.) Unfortunately, this whole line of argument is circular: The reason we believe that the existence of physical objects is independent of us, is precisely because knowledge in classical mechanics is an additive quantity and we can get to the point where we know "enough" to come up with deterministic predictions. That is, we never have to discard knowledge when running new measurements and so our knowledge takes on a independent "role" – which we call reality.

Re: Is Probability Real?

#70
Nice article, on the whole, and usefully provocative.

But I have misgivings about making these close connections between information theory and scientific theory-making. As everyone knows, information theory leaves out any notion of semantics, as it should. But the important thing about our theories of the world is that they have meaning to us. The scientist searches for something that makes sense of the world, not an algorithm for computing a series of numbers. The theories that we search for may not have the smallest Kolmogorov complexity; the criteria that they satisfy go a lot deeper.

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