Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? • Hacker News Board

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#151

Post by pjmlp » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:36 AM UTC

aphroz wrote: post #3

Not at all. Yes Switzerland is probably the best country if you want to follow the rules, have a good quality of life and good education for your children. Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges. This is due to the mentality of the population and the risk aversion of the investors. From a Swiss person.

I fully agree, love your country, have spent two years of my life there and come every time an opportunity pops up.

I speak fluently French, Italian, German and can manage plenty of Swiss German common expressions as well.

Yet, the rules, oh boy, not sure how you will take this, but from my point of view Swiss world of rules makes the northern Germany feel as flexible as a South American country.

When something must be done like A, it is A, not A- or A+, zero deviations.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#152

Post by pjmlp » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:38 AM UTC

Rochus wrote: post #129

Rochus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they focus on small enterprises and medium sized businesses Some of the largest companies have emerged in Switzerland.

For the sceptics: Nestlé, Roche, Novartis, BBC (now ABB), but also Swatch, Syngenta, Schindler, Logitech, Sonova, Ypsomed, etc. just to name a few.

Indeed, and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell.

Forget about doing Bonsais of quality following the latest trends of every software conference, what matters is the physical product that gets out of the assembly line.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#153

Post by eps » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:39 AM UTC

Rochus wrote: post #125

Rochus wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges .. From a Swiss person This is simply not true. I'm Swiss and working as a developer and consultant in Switzerland since the nineties. I - as many others - was able to do several studies at a world-class university right on my doorstep without getting into debt. People are fair, hardworking, innovative and responsible. Switzerland has ideal conditi…

Just came accross the 2019 Global Innovation Index report: https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2019.pdf The ranking on page xxxiv says: 1. Switzerland 2. Sweden 3. United States of America 4. Netherlands 5. United Kingdom 6. Finland 7. Denmark 8. Singapore 9. Germany ... so not too bad after all. This " is an annual ranking of countries by their capacity for, and success in, innovation. It is published…

This is not necessarily because Switzerland is high-tech friendly. There is an absolutely massive pharma industry in the country. Lots of innovation comes from there.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#154

Post by eps » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:52 AM UTC

wespiser_2018 wrote: post #138

jakearmitage wrote: post #94

How does one emigrate to Switzerland?

From what I've gathered when I looked into moving to CH (I could be wrong, and for personal/pandemic reasons didn't pursue this avenue), it's very hard to build a long term life in Switzerland and virtually impossible to gain citizenship through anything but marriage or extraordinary circumstances, but YMMV. If you want to move to Switzerland from the U.S. the easiest thing is to just go there on a 90-day visa, and c…

You can't extend your stay allowance by shuttling across the border every 90 days. There is a 180 day/year cap, exactly to suppress this sort of shenanigans.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#155

Post by amf12 » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:02 AM UTC

thomasdullien wrote: post #150

Rochus wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges .. From a Swiss person This is simply not true. I'm Swiss and working as a developer and consultant in Switzerland since the nineties. I - as many others - was able to do several studies at a world-class university right on my doorstep without getting into debt. People are fair, hardworking, innovative and responsible. Switzerland has ideal conditi…

(The reason Google has an office here is because Urs Hölzle studied at ETH at knew people here.)

Not just studied; he is Swiss!

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#156

Post by Rochus » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:15 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #152

Rochus wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the sceptics: Nestlé, Roche, Novartis, BBC (now ABB), but also Swatch, Syngenta, Schindler, Logitech, Sonova, Ypsomed, etc. just to name a few.

Indeed, and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell. Forget about doing Bonsais of quality following the latest trends of every software conference, what matters is the physical product that gets out of the assembly line.

> and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell.

And have you worked for them? I have for some. For those who develop software it is an essential tool and the software developers closely work with natural scientists and are as appreciated as any other team member. On the other hand you won't have problems finding an American software company where developers are held in cubicles with no daylight.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#157

Post by povik » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:17 AM UTC

UMetaGOMS wrote: post #114

jandrewrogers wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary advantage of the US is cultural. It is not just the anomalously high risk tolerance and wealth, but people who attempt audacious goals tend to be celebrated. Americans shed the Tall Poppy Syndrome that is a very visible feature of virtually all other European cultures, perhaps because the US was predominantly settled by "tall poppies". After years of working in various parts of Europe, I think it distills…

To put it another way, European culture values humility over ego, and does not applaud those who manage to exploit those "lesser" than themselves quite so much.

No, you are not putting it another way. Achievement is not “exploiting those lesser than themselves”.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#158

Post by pjmlp » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:26 AM UTC

Rochus wrote: post #156

pjmlp wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell. Forget about doing Bonsais of quality following the latest trends of every software conference, what matters is the physical product that gets out of the assembly line.

> and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell. And have you worked for them? I have for some. For those who develop software it is an essential tool and the software developers closely work with natural scientists and are as appreciated as any other team member. On the other hand you won't have problems…

I have, but not for that list in particular.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#159

Post by niklasd » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:31 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #151

aphroz wrote: post #3

Not at all. Yes Switzerland is probably the best country if you want to follow the rules, have a good quality of life and good education for your children. Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges. This is due to the mentality of the population and the risk aversion of the investors. From a Swiss person.

I fully agree, love your country, have spent two years of my life there and come every time an opportunity pops up. I speak fluently French, Italian, German and can manage plenty of Swiss German common expressions as well. Yet, the rules, oh boy, not sure how you will take this, but from my point of view Swiss world of rules makes the northern Germany feel as flexible as a South American country. When something must…

On the other hand, when speaking to a government employee, you're mostly speaking to someone who can make an actual decision on that matter, and can help you to solve your problem. Yes, there are many rules, but living there I've never had the feeling that this made the country inflexible.

Re: Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?

#160

Post by lukeqsee » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:52 AM UTC

mahkeiro wrote: post #143

lukeqsee wrote: post #26

As an American immigrant to Switzerland, don’t move here to be on the cutting technical edge. You will be sorely disappointed. It’s a function of societal mentality (slow to change as a way of ensuring enduring stability) and size (fewer people, fairly spread out, only two or three cities big enough to be tech hubs). I moved here for a lot of other reasons, and I’m very happy with my decision and its benefits, but a…

Switzerland being ranked every year in the top 3 most innovative country in the world, you will find a bit of cutting edge techno developed there, however maybe not in your field of expertise. For instance the number of biotech startup is huge with multiple incubator in Switzerland. A few of many links: * https://bioalps.org/innovation-enablers/ * https://baselaunch.ch/

Yes, thanks to the sibling comment, I'm more aware than I was when I made my initial comment.

The startup bent seems to be toward cutting edge in hard sciences (bio, materials, etc.), and as a result, most of the startups are outside my typical sphere and interests, so I didn't know where to look for them!

I stand by my original comment that I didn't move here for the startups, and if I were looking for a place to move for a startup ecosystem, I'd probably still look elsewhere, but there is significantly more technical development that's being commercialized than I realized.