Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#191

Post by olliej » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 3:46 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #190

olliej wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does origin naming only apply to "fancy" products from France and Italy - cheddar originates in England, but no one claims that cheese made exactly the same way elsewhere isn't cheddar.

Origin naming protections are all over the place. In fact “ West Country Farmhouse Cheddar” is a protected name. Another example is bourbon whiskey, it must be produced in the US out of 51% corn in a certain kind of barrel in order to carry the name.

What makes “ West Country Farmhouse Cheddar” different from "West Country Farmhouse Grana Padano"?

By the logic that leads to WCFC, Grana Padano shouldn't be protected. Only "Piacenza Grana Padano" should be.

It is an identical situation: a method of making cheese, with an origin in a specific area. I can make cheese the same way, using the same ingredients for both cheeses, but one I can call cheddar, and the other I have to call "Not Grana Padano".

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#192

Post by simonebrunozzi » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:08 AM UTC

CogitoCogito wrote: post #182

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That has _nothing_ to do with this youtuber. In your view. Not in mine. > trying to educate people on making as authentic a cheese as possible That's the problem. It's never going to be authentic. These kind of cheeses are not just about a recipe; they're also about the ingredients. I don't recall the specific details for grana padano, but to give you an example, the "prosciutto di Parma" is made from pigs who eat…

I don’t really know how to respond to this except to say I never said the cheese was authentic and neither did the video. I said “as authentic as possible”. Stop putting words in my mouth.

> I never said the cheese was authentic

> I said “as authentic as possible”

Explain to me how this is "putting words in your mouth". To me, you're trying to focus on "authenticity". My point is that in this particular case, it's not just about the recipe, but specific ingredients that are really hard to replicate. That's why "authentic" shouldn't be the goal.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#193

Post by simonebrunozzi » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:09 AM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #163

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That has _nothing_ to do with this youtuber. In your view. Not in mine. > trying to educate people on making as authentic a cheese as possible That's the problem. It's never going to be authentic. These kind of cheeses are not just about a recipe; they're also about the ingredients. I don't recall the specific details for grana padano, but to give you an example, the "prosciutto di Parma" is made from pigs who eat…

This kind of attitude is one of the stupidest things you encounter in cooking. Parmesan is a type of cheese that was popularized in two-ish provinces of Italy. It’s not a recipe handed down from God on stone tablets. It’s a product of what people had available at the time and would be different had history been different. Worshiping one specific recipe codified in law that tries to say that literally the exact recipe…

I'd agree with you in general; but in this case, it's recipe + ingredients, where the ingredients are really, really hard to replicate elsewhere.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#194

Post by jiofih » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:46 AM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #110

lb1lf wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can sell it, but the PDO ensures they have to find some other way of gaining market share than piggybacking off the reputation the products they imitate have earned over the years. (Which, in fairness, equates to being unable to sell it if other people shop like I do - nine times out of ten I pick cheeses (to stay with the original example) I already know.)

I would be so happy to find Parmesan that‘s not named Parmesan, just for some more diversity. For example, I would prefer to avoid animal-based rennet if at all possible, but there is no real diversity in cheeses with a Parmesan-like flavor profile made with microbial rennet (I know of one such cheese and while it’s ok it’s also no amazing) and as far as I know Parmesan (actual Parmesan named Parmesan) with microbial…

Is it? It’s an invented problem. No shortage of Rennet even if meat consumption goes down by half.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#195

Post by visarga » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 5:09 AM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #99

visarga wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You talk at length about the 'cheese' part of the issue, but there is also the 'free speech' part. Do you think a brand of cheese can be so special as to justify censuring speech?

Try selling a Gucci handbag and let me know how your free speech gets on. Which specific free speech law are you talking about?

I'm not sure Gucci would put down a hobby account for trying to make a similar bag. But if they did, I'd say their bags are not worth the price on our freedom of expression.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#196

Post by jjav » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 5:58 AM UTC

CogitoCogito wrote: post #145

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #140

I'd guess most of you don't know that "parmesan" (in the US, and elsewhere) is nothing like the real "parmigiano reggiano". It's tens of times cheaper to produce, and I'd venture to say that it might as well be several times less healthy than the original. Same thing for "grana padano". If you don't know anything about wood pulp in the parmesan, or fake olive oil, I suggest you read "real food, fake food" [0]. It ope…

> I guess the reason why the Italian consortium sent this (otherwise stupid) cease-and-desist to this poor Australian guy, is because they're desperately trying to defend the real stuff from the fakes. It's not "otherwise stupid" it _is_ stupid. They should be going after the counterfeiters not someone who is both trying to educate people on making as authentic a cheese as possible while simultaneously making very cl…

> it's about the fact that when you buy grana padano in the US and it's made of sh*t, you as a consumer should be able to tell.

While that's a great goal, I wonder why a few categories like champagne and apparently 'grada padano' are trying to protect the category name instead of just the brand like most other types of product?

I can buy the $5-for-a-plastic-gallon unbranded tequila or I can buy the $60 Don Julio tequila or some of the very expensive tequilas. Their reputation (or lack of) is in the brand, not in the alcohol category word "tequila".

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#197

Post by CogitoCogito » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 8:41 AM UTC

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #192

CogitoCogito wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really know how to respond to this except to say I never said the cheese was authentic and neither did the video. I said “as authentic as possible”. Stop putting words in my mouth.

> I never said the cheese was authentic > I said “as authentic as possible” Explain to me how this is "putting words in your mouth". To me, you're trying to focus on "authenticity". My point is that in this particular case, it's not just about the recipe, but specific ingredients that are really hard to replicate. That's why "authentic" shouldn't be the goal.

I don’t understand what you’re arguing. Here is a guy trying his best to make his cheese as similar to an authentic cheese as possible in taste, texture, etc. You’re saying that shouldn’t be the goal because he will have trouble getting the exact ingredients? So what? He knows he doesn’t have the exact ingredients and is trying his best anyway. All of the limitations are known to all involved. That’s a problem because?

What exactly is your point?

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#198

Post by tgv » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:02 AM UTC

M2Ys4U wrote: post #172

tgv wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the recipe isn't copyrighted, or obtained while under an NDA, I don't see the problem. The trademark is not being used to sell cheese. If we follow your style of reasoning strictly, it would also be forbidden to make videos or documentaries like "How Coca Cola became a success in the Soviet Union" or "Animals tortured in test lab" (although for the latter case, there would obviously be a need to substantia…

>The trademark is not being used to sell cheese. But it's not a trademark, it's a PDO. They're two different types of exclusive right.

But surely you can explain how they make it there? Or can you only explain how champagne is made when you are an seventh generation inhabitant of the Champagne region and the video is hosted at youtube.chmp.fr? I don't think PDO (if you meant Protected Designation of Origin) applies to information.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#199

Post by orestis » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

kmeisthax wrote: post #183

orestis wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feta is not a region in Greece. Feta is a type of cheese that has the whole of Greece as the terroir. It’s also made with sheep and goat milk and the cow-based cheese that resembles it (white cheese, salad cheese etc) just doesn’t compare taste wise. With all that said, if you see (in the EU) something being called Feta, you immediately know what it’s made of and that it’s made in Greece.

God, I wish HN had an edit comment button right about now... Regardless, my argument is not "you should be able to call cow's milk feta cheese", it's "labeling standards should not require a product to be made in a certain place". A strict labeling standard that said "feta has to be made from sheep or goat's milk" is perfectly defensible. One that says "it has to be made in a specific country" isn't.

Hehe

I do agree with you though. As a Greek living abroad, I wouldn’t mind eating Feta that’s made in Turkey, Bulgaria, Albania etc (neighboring countries which share a lot of the culinary/pastoral tradition), as long as I knew that the ingredients and methods are the same. Which is hard to do without strict regulations though, especially outside the EU.

Fun fact: there must be thousands of regional variations of Feta Cheese in Greece. Major supermarkets will carry at least 5-6 brands, and in the cheese section you will get an extra 4-5 varieties. They are all called Feta + place name, and they differ in fat content, water content, acidity, saltiness, tanginess etc. Delicious and sad that most non-Greeks haven’t had a taste of good tasting Feta as the exported varieties are usually pretty meh.

Re: Cease and desist for video on how to make “Grana Padano Style Cheese” [video]

#200

Post by SeanLuke » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #116

SeanLuke wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, most feta is incredibly made with cow's milk. So no, the US doesn't have strong protection there.

Or to put it differently, The US cheese industry has strong protection from the EU cheese industry's naming rules. For Feta: > According to the relevant EU legislation, only those cheeses produced in a traditional way in particular areas of Greece (Peloponnese, Central Greece, Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia, Thrace, and the islands of Lesbos and Cephalonia), which are made from sheep's milk, or from a mixture of sheep's…

> Or to put it differently, The US cheese industry has strong protection from the EU cheese industry's naming rules.

I suppose. Anyway, this is like buying hamburger meat and discovering it's made out of ostrich.

I think there's a big difference between making it illegal to name something because it wasn't manufactured in a certain spot, versus making it illegal because it's a completely different product. I couldn't care less if Feta was made in Greece or not. But Feta from cow's milk isn't Feta, any more than a peanut butter sandwich made with hummus isn't a peanut butter sandwich.