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How to Think for Yourself

paulgraham.com

581–590 of 874 posts

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#581
This essay would have been stronger had pg explored where people choose to be conventional vs independent, rather than make it an identity-based dichotomy between independent / conventional.

As it stands, this essay will cause people to insert themselves in the piece along the way rather than consider from a distance what is being discussed. This is especially true since one of the options is framed as the 'good' one, which triggers our innate confirmation bias - of the aspects we recognize in ourselves, we see the 'good' ones loud and clear, while we downplay or ignore the 'bad'. The takeaway of the piece for most is 'I'm an independent thinker' with perhaps some brief acknowledgement of 'but I've had to do conventional things'. Just evoking Dunning-Kruger doesn't innoculate against this conclusion.

One of my favorite quotes is "Be regular and orderly in your life, so that you may be violent and original in your work" by Gustave Flaubert. This is, in effect, and similar but distinct thesis from pg's - that people choose to spend time & energy being 'independent thinkers' in certain domains of life, while hewing to convention elsewhere. Of course, different people do this to different degrees, but that's really where this exploration is most interesting - where, when, and how should I be an independent thinker?.

One of my favorite activities when getting to know someone is to find the part of their being that is the independent thinker - what hidden rebellions they posses, where those came from, etc. Almost every reasonably smart person I've met has had some independent or unconventional aspect to them if you look close enough, even if they're outwardly very conventional. It's finding these gems and learning from them that makes getting to know someone so much fun. To his credit pg does mention something similar when discussing learning from people.

The other reason I like Gustave's quote is that it suggests much more of a choice and strategy in the matter of independence, while leaving open what set of circumstances that led to the 'violent and original' aspect of independent thought. This rings more true to me, because independent thinking has a personal cost when dealing with others, and we must engage with others in life. Reasoning from first principles or holding unpopular beliefs cost us energy (for different people this energy is more or less felt), and Gustave's point is to focus those limited energies on our creative work where they are more productively employed.

Having studied psych, bio, and education I'm sensitive to arguments that pontificate about whether something is 'more nature than nurture', especially from those with very technical and deterministic mindsets. To me, this is lazy thinking and convenient shorthand for 'I don't really know how people come to know things'. It's even contradicted by his own admission that his father gave him a strong dose of one of the three parts of being an independent thinker. Because we have such an overwhelming amount of evidence about how different environments shape people's beliefs and actions, when presented with nature/nurture arguments about loose concepts like 'independent thinking' my take is the burden of proof is on those claiming nature. [1]

Nonetheless, I did enjoy the essay and its analysis. Many parts rung true or rhymed with my own experiences as a founder and early employee. For instance, the increasing conventionality of later employees you hire. But again pg gets close but misses an important nuance - the environment of a startup at founding or early on inspires more independent thinking because it's a blank sheet where people have a great deal of agency, while the environment of a startup after product market fit is a more conventional environment with constraints that drive conventional action. Thus, most people thrust into an early stage environment are going to become more 'independent thinking' by virtue of the environment and visa-versa in late stage environments.

Anyway, it was an enjoyable read regardless, and clearly inspired some quality discussion.

[1] A great example of this is the rise of violent crime in the 70s and 80s. A person then may come to the conclusion that man's nature is much more violent, when in fact the root cause is an excess of lead in the environment disrupting neurological development. This is an extreme 'near nature' argument but worth considering how little we understand our environments effect on us. https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-le...

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#582

Like many of pg's essays there's an unqualified glorification of being independent. For example the suggestion that hiring conformist people is something that just happens. It seems more likely that companies more or less consciously hire such people, because a company where everyone thinks independently would be one where everyone wants to do something different, and nothing would get done, no one could agree on any…

>Bryan Caplan in his book The Case Against Education suggests that employers value college degrees partly as a signal of conformism, and that that's the reason college is so hard to replace. I dunno how true this is. I think it is more because it signals above average IQ although I think conformity may play a role too.

It's mostly a mix of this and financial means in terms of explanatory power. HN seems to routinely forget that about 64% of Americans 25+ don't have anything beyond a high school degree. Since financial means also probably correlates with employee potential, the signal works in the same direction regardless of the explanation.

The people who were smart enough to go to college but didn't broadly fall into two buckets: (1) insufficient financial means, (2) nonconformists. I strongly suspect the latter group are statistical outliers.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#583

It's really hard to read this kind of discussion of paul graham's work, because I feel there is a lot of reaction to who he is rather than just the ideas being presented. I'd love to see him do a [Richard Bachman]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bachman ) i.e. start writing essays with no obvious connection to his actual identity and see what response it gets.

I agree, it's very irritating that so many people respond to who the messenger is, rather than to what the message is. You don't really have to anonymize the author's identity in order to focus on the message rather than the messenger. You just have to let go of identity politics and any similar goofiness.

There is no identity politics - which in itself isn't bad or "goofiness" by the way - when the author is read as part of the writing. Most critical comments mentioned Graham's biography for specific reasons that correspond to the writing.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#584
post #205

I find reading this article a very uncomfortable experience. It's just assertion after assertion without evidence to back them up. Do people believe this guy because he's rich?

How do you know people believe him? I can tell you why I love his essays: because of the way he argues. It is very transparent. I seldomly agree with his conclusion(s), but since he is so honest (he is not trying to deceive) in listing his arguments it is just a matter for me to find where he is wrong... or where I am wrong. I find this style so uncommon and stimulating that I hardly can stand the regular "opinion" h…

What are his arguments? That's what I'm puzzled about.

Usually an argument is a series of premises followed by discussion of how those premises combine to lead to a conclusion. The conclusion can be deductive or inductive. I am not demanding a scientific or sociological proof - but there is not even an attempt at explaining why these premises hold. There are two types of people in this world - independent and non-independent thinkers. Why? What if there are 10 types of people in this world, all landing on a spectrum of independent and conventional thought mixed in different aspects of their lives? Why should I accept the premises? What good is reading a conclusion (how to cultivate "independent thought" in the second half of the essay) when I don't know if the premises are even valid?

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#585
post #421

Over the years, I've found PG's essays much less compelling. As some sibling comments here have noted, there's a level of self-assuredness that feels increasingly disconnected from reality, like PG's become a synecdoche of SF VC-fuelled startup culture as a whole. Whether that's him changing, or me, or the world, I'm not certain--but I still look forward to them simply because the ensuing discussions here on HN tend…

While I agree (and would describe the issue as a kind of insularity), I find that PG's essays still have a fair amount of value – if I had to put some kind of measure on it, I'd say that for his older ones I found value in 80-90% of a given essay, while the more recent ones like this, it's closer to 40-50%. Using this one as an example, I disagree with many of the assertions in the first section, some in the second,…

> for his older ones I found value in 80-90% of a given essay, while the more recent ones like this, it's closer to 40-50%.

This is almost certainly a part of my reaction to PG's latter works; since the earlier stuff felt so spot-on to me at the time, there's an element of anticipation and disappointment when that resonance, once readily available, isn't there. And....that's _okay_. The earlier stuff still happened. I, and PG, and the world have all changed. Poo-tee-weet.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#586
post #421

Over the years, I've found PG's essays much less compelling. As some sibling comments here have noted, there's a level of self-assuredness that feels increasingly disconnected from reality, like PG's become a synecdoche of SF VC-fuelled startup culture as a whole. Whether that's him changing, or me, or the world, I'm not certain--but I still look forward to them simply because the ensuing discussions here on HN tend…

> there's a level of self-assuredness that feels increasingly disconnected from reality There's a unique type of hubris that comes from operating in the startup/VC world for a long period of time. On a long enough timeline, investors and founders alike start to forget that selection bias has shaped their perspective of who is successful. The failed investments and bankrupt startups are quickly forgotten, almost as if…

I don't think it's actually a unique form of hubris. This is a common discussion point in the politics of class. The wealthy quickly come to convince themselves of their own greatness & deservedness. Elements of luck, failures, and aid from others are all removed from the personal narrative. You wind up with a tautology; I made it because I am great, and because I am standing here, I must be great.

It's hard & uncomfortable to think that you are just as lucky as you are good, and that others equally deserving (but less lucky) have nothing.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#588

To be a successful scientist... you can't publish papers saying things other people already know PG may have some good insights sometimes, but it's rare I see him get something so completely wrong as this. Reproducing research to demonstrate a result was correct or not is a cornerstone in the foundation of science. A fundamental problem in the research community is that incentives as misaligned to support that initia…

But reproducing research results does produce new knowledge: enhanced validity of the original research. Or on the contrary, decreased validity. Both outcomes result in the creation of new (deeper) knowledge.

Yes, they do produce knowledge. And had PG said "a successful scientist has to produce knowledge" I'd be fine with that statement. Instead, he used the word "novel".

You could not say "I am doing novel research to reproduce the results of study X" and have "novel" be a correct usage of the term. That is simply not what novel means.

Sure, PG is right that "novel" research is important. But not that it's a necessary condition for success. That just reveals the SV bias against actually doing the daily work it takes to simply keep things going

It's fine to want to disrupt things, to (in the appropriate context) move fast & break things, fail quickly and move on, whatever. But when the dust settles on a successful "disruption", you need large numbers of people to put in the day-to-day work to make it work and keep things going. There is a tendency in SV culture to regard that first part as the highest virtue. Heck it's right there in PG's title: Think for Yourself The implication being that you're not thinking for yourself if you're one of the millions of people that make things work every day in a million different ways. Or take this quote:

"If you're naturally independent-minded, you're going to find it frustrating to be a middle manager."

This is so incredibly insulting to imply a person could not be a manager and also think for themselves. It's indicative of the out-of-touch siloed SV cult mentality that has raised novelty for its own sake along with hustle porn & more to cargo-cult virtues, all while deriding, denigrating, and just outright insulting any endeavor that isn't in service to that.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#589

One of the things I've started actively disliking more and more are the "independent thinkers" in the tech oligarchy who seem to do it simply because they enjoy being contrarians. They post pseudo-intellectual babble about going against the grain justified by single sentence "observations" about some anecdotal evidence they then stretch and generalize into a larger point and continue beating up until the horse is dea…

there are loads of these folks in VC. Anyone who went to an ivy/stanford/MIT, worked in banking for 2 years, and now is at a VC by definition isn't a contrarian. Contrarianism bears out in life decisions - not a faux intellectual attitude

“The noble title of "dissident" must be earned rather than claimed; it connotes sacrifice and risk rather than mere disagreement.”

― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a moral thing. It's called inductive learning. We classify people and things based on our past experiences. The more experiences you have the better the inductive method works. It's good to learn about black swans, else you might make the incorrect logical conclusion that swans are ALWAYS white. And more importantly learn that "black swans" is not only about swans. There can be sports-types who also like int…

>> The MMA guy was apparently like "so I guess these guys have just never hung out with any athletes?" Turns out it isn't that abnormal for them to like cool and nerdy stuff. > "black swans" is not only about swans. There can be sports-types who also like intellectual activity The gp's experience taught that such sports-types are not black swans. It's not just that the stereotype had exceptions; it's that the stereot…

> the stereotype wasn't even accurate at low granularity

In this single case. This was the first and only sports-guy they had met that was interested in computer-games.

"stereotype had exceptions". Well not really, for these observers, at this point in time, the stereotype had ONE exception, this particular guy.

Personally I don't think it surprising at all that a sports-guy would be interested in computer games. They are games after all :-)

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