Live data from Hacker News

hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

hcaptcha.com

301–310 of 380 posts

Re: hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

#301
post #11

I think it's great. So many sites sit behind Cloudflare now and Cloudflare now uses hCaptcha, which is a big win. And the hCaptchas themselves are easy to complete. No more wondering if you actually clicked on 'all' the traffic lights anymore, yay! I inspected the source code of Google's reCaptcha offering and was disgusted at how many bits of information they were collecting. They also seem to be fingerprinting user…

I've had hCaptcha recheck me repeatedly and fail to work at all on VPN. I much prefer ebay's simple slide the puzzle piece method.

Yes.

hCaptcha is not easy as is being claimed here. I have lost a lot of time and been blocked from much content due to hCaptcha.

Re: hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FriendlyCaptcha will prevent 99.9% of spam For someone who has little expertise in this specific field, how are you calculating this?

Admittedly it's not calculated so it may be a stretch, it's based on the assumption that the vast majority of spam out there just looks for forms to submit without smarts (which is also why honeypots can be pretty effective, especially if you have a small website that nobody will take the effort to work around it.) I've seen people report that they have reduced spam to near nothing already with just a honeypot, but o…

> I've seen people report that they have reduced spam to near nothing already with just a honeypot, but of course I can't verify those claims.

Can verify from personal experience. I once implemented a simple honeypot approach on a small blog site. It immediately cut down automated "drive by" comment spam to almost nothing. I never tried to quantify it, but it was the difference between dozens of spam comments a day and maybe one or two a week (which I assumed were probably manual submissions).

Most spam bots are pretty unsophisticated it seems, and do not pay any attention to a honeypot field being hidden either by CSS or JS.

Re: hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

#303
post #48

I dislike the widespread use of captcha regardless of provider. I realize anything connected to the internet will be subject to automated abuse, and it's impossible to run some types of services without taking some steps to defend against it, but it seems to me there's usually a way to handle that without invading the user's privacy or wasting their time. The exact details will vary based on the type of service, of c…

> The potential reward for an attacker who successfully gains access to an account is high, so it seems almost certain anyone running a targeted attack would defeat this by handing it off to a human upon detecting that they had a good account.

Then it may surprise you to know that simply preventing automation makes many types of account takeover attacks infeasible in practice. It won't mitigate the attack if you are personally a high value, named target. But most account takeover attacks operate en masse and are coordinated after large security breaches, so having to hand over accounts to a human operator as part of the auth loop would make the campaign uneconomical. It also introduces another step at which an attack can be logged, recognized, fingerprinted and stopped by an incident response team.

This is something your security team would probably gladly tell you about if you asked them. There's also a bunch of talks about this presented at conferences like Blackhat, DEFCON, USENIX, etc.

Stated in another way: not all potential rewards for successful account takeover are high. The modal account in the modal campaign is low value, which is made up for by volume and particular purpose of accessing accounts. If you model these campaigns economically, you can eliminate entire classes of "low margin, high volume" attacks simply by introducing friction that mitigates automation.

Then there is a natural cost-benefit tradeoff as to how much friction is allowable on a per-user basis to prevent the most common types of account takeover attacks.

Re: hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

#304
post #48

I dislike the widespread use of captcha regardless of provider. I realize anything connected to the internet will be subject to automated abuse, and it's impossible to run some types of services without taking some steps to defend against it, but it seems to me there's usually a way to handle that without invading the user's privacy or wasting their time. The exact details will vary based on the type of service, of c…

>One particularly egregious misuse of captcha in a service I use presents one after I enter a correct username and password.

I run a problem validation community platform. Couple of days back an individual launched automated spam/DDOS attack by commenting an abusive, demoralising text on every single thread by creating different users.

Fortunately, I had systems in place to identify and mitigate it with Cloudflare. So, in this case even genuine users would have received captcha. I found out soon enough who the attacker was from the firewall, he had earlier created an account with his own name and was using the same IP to attack, after I blocked his IP he tried with couple of other IP addresses incl. Tor; but stopped with his activity after couple of hours.

I generally don't like re-captcha because it takes cultural background for granted(e.g. 'Pie' is not a common food worldwide), Accessibility as a disabled person myself and has no mitigation for captcha-solving farms.

But in nuisance cases like the one I detailed above, captcha is the easiest method available en masse.

Re: hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

#305
I was a bit surprised to not find a reference to the singularly most irritating thing about Google's recaptcha - that it treats me - the one trying to authenticate - as a free source of data labels for its ML systems. I guess I'm unlikely to be the only one irked by another "identify all the bicycles" challenge.

Do the labels I provide belong to me or to Google? .. when I signed no job contract with them to provide that information.

edit: aha! https://www.hcaptcha.com/labeling - that's why it wasn't mentioned. One more labelling service that I won't like.

Re: hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

#306
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google's reCaptcha code seemed to be very keen on knowing my 'cadence' or the way I used my mouse and how quickly (or how slow) I completed the captcha. It also looked at things like timezone, screen resolution, battery charge level etc So they could determine if it was 'you' who was using the captcha, soon after, in a separate session (even on a different device!) I'd bet a good amount that they store that along w…

Just turn on "Resist Fingerprinting" in Firefox and you'll find ReCAPTCHA _really_ annoying! I have to solve 3-5 "panes" of a ReCAPTCHA on _every_ page... It's very annoying that preserving privacy comes with this cost. I almost want to just add a "DeathByCaptcha" extension to handle these for me and pay a few cents for every page I visit, lol

> It's very annoying that preserving privacy comes with this cost.

It doesn't necessarily have to if Google supported privacy pass like hcaptcha does. The problem is that they don't.

Re: hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

#307
post #4

Worth noting that this title is primarily due to Cloudflare having switched to them from ReCAPTCHA, and Cloudflare is... well, relatively popular, to say the least. I'm curious what kind of data may exist on the experience of switching for larger providers; do the users like it? how much more/less time do they spend solving? do they care, let alone even notice that it's not Google's ReCAPTCHA? Regardless, as ReCAPTCH…

> Do the users like it?

Absolutely. Having to solving only one captcha every few days beats solving 5 or 6 on each page visit. hcaptcha supports privacy pass but Recaptcha doesn't.

Re: hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

#308
post #227
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I've been an engineer at hCaptcha for a few years now building out the service. I'm just as interested in you as hearing about customer and user success/pain stories! > Worth noting that this title is primarily due to Cloudflare having switched to them from ReCAPTCHA, and Cloudflare is... well, relatively popular, to say the least. That's definitely a part of it, but we also have a number of other large s…

I usually just bounce when I see a captcha (if I get one, I usually get a string of them, so I don’t bother). However, I checked secondary markets where you can pay a human to solve a captcha. It takes a professional captcha solver 70 seconds to solve an hCaptcha but only 15-20 seconds to solve a reCaptcha. Is that typical? That seems horrible. The market rate for a captcha solution is 1-3 cents, which is clearly wor…

Have you tried using privacy pass? Having to spend 70 seconds solving one hcaptcha every couple of days might be a good middle ground.

Re: hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Webauthn may make it easy because it supports platform authenticators like Touch ID / Face ID. Two good demos are at http://webauthn.me/ and https://webauthn.io/ It's now supported in all major browsers but platform authenticators are likely not supported on all OS yet.

This makes a lot of sense - exactly what I was thinking

I'm not sure it will be as secure as captchas though. Browsers will probably allow dummy platform authenticators for ease of development, which can be used by bots as well.

Re: hCaptcha now runs on fifteen percent of the internet

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to reCAPTCHA v3, our approach does not depend on tracking your visit history. (disclosure: work there.)

Would you pass this feedback on? Having completely opaque pricing is a big red flag. I assume it is very expensive, or else you couldn't afford to route inquiries through a sales rep. If you aren't hiding a high price, you should publish it. Also, and this is a strong personal preference, I never ever want to talk to or hear from a sales rep.

Couldn't agree more. When comparing my options, I usually discard the options that hide their prices if at least one has a published theirs. I don't even bother contacting them. I don't have the time.
Post reply on HN