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A Worsening Culture War

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Re: A Worsening Culture War

#221

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

pseudalopex wrote: post #190
hprotagonist wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>leaned heavily towards socialism and economic justice... Not to be too on the nose, but another equally valid phrase here is “leaned heavily towards being a christian minister”, which he was. The religious motivations of the civil rights movement are ones we seem blind to, and the only reason i can think of for it is that when i, an american, hear “christian”, i have been taught think “republican suburban or rural w…

The civil rights movement was motivated by people wanting civil rights. People on both sides claimed religious support. Rural white Christians greatly outnumber urban Jewish Christians. Most major denominations discriminate against LGBT people. People who are super damn interested in worker rights and housing access aren't disproportionately Christians in my experience. Some are and some aren't.

> The civil rights movement was motivated by people wanting civil rights. People on both sides claimed religious support.

Yeah, this a smart answer.

> urban Jewish Christians

This doesn't even make any sense. Judaism and Christianity are related but they're separate religions.

> People who are super damn interested in worker rights and housing access aren't disproportionately Christians in my experience.

Nowadays, yeah, though things like food banks and hospitals often still have Christian names, origins, and even (particularly older) members.

And progressive institutions like the YMCA and the Salvation Army were explicitly Christian from the beginning.

But you notice I am mostly naming older things.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#222

Post by Aunche »

lostcolony wrote: post #163
Aunche wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Virtually everything about that Carlin quote is completely wrong. There is no business in the world outside of news media (which includes the author) that makes or preserves money from the middle class fighting with the lower class. They'd rather the power classes get over their differences so they can make money off them. The top 1% in US pay more taxes in taxes than the bottom 90%. Before you ask, I do think that t…

"The top 1% in US pay more taxes in taxes than the bottom 90%" And yet the percentage is lower. It really doesn't matter the comparative amounts; to put this to an even more egregious extreme, if the top 1% had 99% of the wealth, and paid 20% of that in taxes, and the bottom 99% had the remaining 1% of the wealth, and paid 0 taxes, it's not a sign that all is well, and the fact that the rich are paying -all- the taxe…

Again, I would be happy with tax increases with the rich. My grip is this quote:

"The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes..."

It's blatantly untrue, as are most things comedians say, but Carlin somehow is treated like a scholar. The spamming of his quotes only adds fuel to the culture war.

Consumerism is completely orthogonal to polarization. Video games and Netflix promote consumerism and keep the lower classes "distracted" from change. There's no need to intentionally stir conflict. See how much corporations were willing to spend against Trump on the last 2 elections.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#223

Post by js2 »

hprotagonist wrote: post #3

"That's all the media and the politicians are ever talking about, the things that separate us, things that make us different from one another. That's the way the ruling class operates in any society. They try to divide the rest of the people. They keep the lower and the middle classes fighting with each other so that they the rich, can run off with all the fucking money. Fairly simple thing. Happens to work. You know…

If you want to watch a satirical take on it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Collar_(film)

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#224

Post by Aunche »

meekmind wrote: post #128
Aunche wrote: post #33

Despite there being no quantitative evidence of cultural divisiveness being profitable for the wealthy as a whole, it's a popular narrative because it's a simple deflection of blame. Maybe the author should reflect on their own writing rather than point a finger at the rich. I'm sure Bezos would be happier if the Trump adminstration wouldn't rig a multi billion dollar defense contract in response to his newspaper. Yo…

I will agree there is a degree of culpability in the general population and a preference to deflect blame on both sides. I would also agree that it is important to define what "rich" means since making class distinctions and comparisons does change the emphasis and logic considerably. That said, the (ultra) wealthy tend to profit either way and prefer chaos because it puts an incredible downward pressure on the class…

> That said, the (ultra) wealthy tend to profit either way and prefer chaos because it puts an incredible downward pressure on the classes below them.

Is there any quantified evidence that supports this hypothesis? The corporations owned by the ultra wealthy spent a lot more money on backing Hilary and Biden rather than Trump.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#225

Post by syshum »

slfnflctd wrote: post #185
awakeasleep wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both parties campaign on fixing healthcare. After the latest fixes, insurance for a self employed family of four is about $25k a year after insurance and deductibles.

I'm not 100% sure what the point you're making here is, but in case the reader is unaware, under the Trump administration, the ACA was definitely heavily gutted ( https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/14/7687316... ). Over less than 3 months, a friend of mine's monthly premium went up an order of magnitude - with reduced benefits - to the point where it made no sense to do anything but drop it completely…

What exactly was "gutted" other than the Fine if you did not carry insurance? Which was largely regressive and blatantly unconstitutional but since they labeled the fine a "tax" it just scraped since the court system has not ruled a federal program unconstitutional since FDR threaten to Stack the court.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#226

Post by sonotathrowaway »

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #217
sonotathrowaway wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were just as many religious motivations behind slavery and segregation as there was for it - actually more, in reality. In truth, evangelical Christianity has been one of the primary tools used to advance and justify segregation and slavery throughout western history, with some going so far as to equate rejection of slavery as no different than rejecting Christ. The predominant denomination of the south, Southe…

> evangelical Christianity has been one of the primary tools used to advance and justify segregation and slavery throughout western history This is right if you say "America" instead of "the west". And then you're talking about a timescale of maybe 200 years, tops. But when you say "the west" you're talking about a longer history of Christianity in Europe. You're talking about the Catholic Church, the Protestant Refo…

> There was notable involvement in the abolitionist movement among northern Protestants, and civil rights activism among catholics, Jews, and northern Protestants.

I meant those as two discrete times, civil war era abolitionists and civil rights era Jewish and catholic activists. I didn’t claim that Catholics and Jews were active against abolition. I’m fairly comfortable with the history of immigration of different ethnicities into America and the ‘whitening’ of certain immigrant populations, so I doubt I’m ignoring their timelines.

Additionally, rereading my comment you’ll see I try to distinguish between northern (mainline Protestants, but also catholic) and southern Christians, as I mostly associate (possibly incorrectly) evangelicals as tracing their lineages through southern baptist & Midwest fundamentalist denominations.

I never mentioned atheism so I’m not quite sure how you constructed a position from my comment, but that’s not really applicable to any view I hold.

My point in the comment was to disabuse readers of the revisionist idea that Christianity, in particular American evangelicals, are natural champions of oppressed people - and if we measure their net effects on minorities in America in the aggregate, I’d wager it’s mostly been a tool to justify and propagate oppression and segregation more often than not. You are correct that my argument was centered on American Christianity, as even British Christianity (particularly quakers) had a markedly different relationship to abolition than their American southern Baptist counterparts.

I wholeheartedly agree with your argument that the battle lines have been drawn through Christianity, but I don’t think that it split the population into 50/50 proportions.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#227

Post by pseudalopex »

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #221
pseudalopex wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The civil rights movement was motivated by people wanting civil rights. People on both sides claimed religious support. Rural white Christians greatly outnumber urban Jewish Christians. Most major denominations discriminate against LGBT people. People who are super damn interested in worker rights and housing access aren't disproportionately Christians in my experience. Some are and some aren't.

> The civil rights movement was motivated by people wanting civil rights. People on both sides claimed religious support. Yeah, this a smart answer. > urban Jewish Christians This doesn't even make any sense. Judaism and Christianity are related but they're separate religions. > People who are super damn interested in worker rights and housing access aren't disproportionately Christians in my experience. Nowadays, ye…

I assume hprotagonist meant ethnic Jews.

Charity and economic justice are different.

Even the Salvation Army and many religious hospitals discriminate against LGBT people.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#228

Post by steve_adams_86 »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #27
eznzt wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The craziest part of this american culture war, to me, is that it seems to spill over to the rest of the world. It does not seem so crazy to me, after decades of cultural imperialism from America, that we are mirroring the same patterns of behaviour and fighting the same battles. (Just to be clear, I'm not against imperialism) If American politics are straining your relationship with your sister and you are not even…

> If American politics are straining your relationship with your sister and you are not even American, sorry to put it like this but only you two have yourselves to blame. Next time your sister brings the topic up say "yeah right" and move on. This. America is not actively shoving its politics into our conversations, we're doing that ourselves (I'm from Germany as well, btw.). Yes, talking about whatever social shena…

It suggests a lack of conscious effort to conduct and observe thoughts and actions in a constructive way. To fall into observed patterns of behaviour without intention is no one’s fault but the one behaving, I would think.

That’s not to say there’s no such thing as influence or persuasion. And those can be powerful. Ultimately we can all decide how we engage with our family, person to person, regardless of how the USA or anyone in the USA indicates.

It’s incredibly important to be aware of that and act accordingly. If mainstream media from another country can change your relationship with your sister, it seems to me that something is wrong. Negative external influences aren’t about to go away, so it’s on the individual to be cognizant and vigilant about responding appropriately.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#229

Post by Swizec »

cvhashim wrote: post #200
Swizec wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we were middle school kids in Slovenia we used to have huge fights and “gang” beef over east side vs west side. We had no idea they were geographical, we just picked a side based on which rapper you liked. American culture is weird like that. We all consume it via mass media. I think it’s just an empire thing. During Victorian times everyone was trying to be a little British, or a little French, maybe a little G…

> We had no idea they were geographical, we just picked a side based on which rapper you liked. No offense, I just find this hilarious for some reason. Kids can be so impressionable.

It’s even funnier when you realize that this was some 4 years into English classes for most of us and we could barely understand the lyrics.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#230

Post by kodah »

javert wrote: post #85
zo1 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how you can say there isn't any evidence? The wealthy most certainly donate to political causes, campaigns and opinionated non-profits. It wouldn't be a stretch to argue that such money amplifies those entities' power, thus causing societal level problems with the amplified power of their wealth. It's not 100% valid or exhaustive proof, but at the very least shows that it's a reasonable avenue of exploring r…

The rich don't control the two political parties. Showing that they do would be the beginning of evidence. In fact, the Dems' agenda is anti-rich (raise taxes enormously, etc.) and the Republicans are currently controlled by non-college-educated blue-collar people. This is obvious. If Taibbi has a counter-narrative to the obvious, that's fine, but he needs to present evidence.

> Republicans are currently controlled by non-college-educated blue-collar people.

This characterization lacks credibility. Let's look at some leaders:

- Lindsey Graham [0]

- Mitch McConnell [1]

- Kevin McCarthy [2]

- Ronna McDaniel [3]

Characterizing them as "non-college-educated blue-collar people" is odd. First, what do you have against working class people? Second, what inference are you trying to make with college education?

> In fact, the Dems' agenda is anti-rich (raise taxes enormously, etc.)

Maybe? Bloomberg famously tried to buy an election and the DNC certainly capitulated. I don't know that I'd call that "anti-rich", I think I might use the word "opportunistic". In a time where we're dealing with a lot of inequality guess what kind of opportunity is rife for exploitation? The kind that makes Dick Costolo think he's not "rich". [4]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsey_Graham#Early_life

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_McConnell#Early_life_and...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_McCarthy_(California_pol...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronna_McDaniel#Early_life,_edu...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Costolo#Controversy

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