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Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

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Re: Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

#21
post #20

https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5743 Appears to be a junior/intermediate dev with somewhat ambitious and rather ideological views. That doesn't mean he's wrong but bear in mind the context of the enthusiasm and desire to change everything through JavaScript.

Could not find an ideological view there?

(From the document) Scrap everything else go with JavaScript, which I assume is the language he's most familiar with.

It's at least consistent with classic religious "my language is better than yours".

Re: Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

#22
why not just add new xml/cool-web-application content type to all browsers that lives in a parallel universes next to text/html and allows building rich UIs in wasm via nice modern api like for example flutter.

Then HTML/CSS/JS could be left alone for documents and hypertext based pages like wikipedia, blogs etc and stuff like googles docs or figma can be built in a new format.

And as both formats are supported by all browsers a document could just embed and xml/cool-web-application resource in an iframe and the application could just have a component to render an linked document.

Re: Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

#23

Maybe the next step of the "web" is just to fully embrace the browser as an app VM. Have one standard for reading Wikipedia, and another for running Figma in the browser. WASM + some common simple widget-esque API (like a small subset of Cocoa/GTK/QT). The browser provide implementations of some functionality like text-rendering and event handling, but then it's up to developer/frameworks to solve everything else.

I would argue that the web browser evolved, by accident, into the closest thing we have to a portable and usable desktop OS.

However, to me the browser is more like a "requirement statement", than a solution.

The success of the web is just a symptom that:

- users want applications that work on computers. Win vs Mac vs Linux vs Mobile vs ... is all nice and well for us geeks, but to real-world people, it's just a frigging computer.

For some reason, OS vendors were never able to agree on anything substantial, but browser vendors did.

We need a W3C for OSes. (Except, maybe one with a constitution, a parliament, a police force and a tax enforcement agency.) They have to decide an OS-level API.

They will probably fight over which programming language to use to write applications, but whatever they decide, someone will write a brainfuck compiler frontend for it, anyway, and it will not matter.

- users want to use applications, not spend hours installing them.

The browser got that right by accident, by using reflection and stringly-typing ; you 'install an application' by 'sharing a bit line of text that you can copy paste in an email', and you 'find an application' by typing a name in Google.

The browser stopped short of getting anything else right about application, feverishly waiting for someone to solve "librairies" for them by just downloading 100 versions of jquery and praying.

The OSes of the future will need interoperable, discoverable, namespaced apps, with namespaced, signed, shared libraries.

- users want applications with GUIs. And pretty much all applications will want to display the same basic suff that has been known since Smalltalk. (And the users don't really give a damn that the Facebook buttons do not look exactly the same as the Twitter buttons.)

The OSes of the future will need a standard way to draw the Smalltalk-level UIs. And easily make the same application with a different logo on it, because the customer wanted Facebook, but more yellow.

- also, users wants games that just take all the screen and they could not give a damn about the buttons in the game, they want to play. And it should be fast.

The OSes of the future will need a standard way to use GPUs. And, really, nothing else. The game devs don't really want an OS, actually. Ask Casey Muratori. Let the game devs do whatever they want with the computer, they know better than you, and will write semi-portable machine code (aka C) anyway. Your "browser" thingy would makes them laugh hard if they had the time to laugh while peeing in a jar to finish their next version of CoD.

- and users have a computer to do things with other people, so of course networking. What do you mean there are computers without networking ?

The OSes of the future will need networking. But since the people who designed ethernet and Internet and TCP/IP and routers etc... were border-line geniuses with infinite vision (apparently they were high on LSD most of the time), people will just use TCP/IP to communicate with our cousins of Mars. But we'll have to come up with something better HTTP. And JSON.

And if we could let the OS handle network identity management ? So that all applications don't have to speed the first six months of development on the "login" page ? Yes I know it's hard, but it's harder when it's not the right part of the computer doing it.

- and some, a tiny little portion of some users want to use computers to read the news. So, yeah, of course the OS would have shareable document reader. And those documents might very well be HTML (although, we all know that we need better.) And the New York Times would build a "smalltalk-like app" to organise columns and images and typography and whatnot on an infinite canvas, and sometimes, display the text of an Op-ed - rather than turning the text of an Op-Ed into a weird tree of DOM elements, and have a poor soul come up with 1000 lines of CSS that do the work of 10 lines of code.

Of course it will not happen, but it was nice to imagine that.

Re: Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

#24
"It is of utmost importance that the web should always be considered as one concept, one technology and one language, as this is the only way to avoid these unnecessary issues and to get clarity in the pursuit of substantial improvements."

Weirdly fascist. No thanks.

Re: Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

#25
If the web is to be rebuilt from scratch, let's choose something that is not Javascript as the basis.

Gary Bernhardt's WAT talk shows just how non-sensical Javascript can be:

https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

If we are going to start over, let's design something that is better rather than choose the accidental winner that was hacked together in 11 days. (I love you, Javascript, but it's Stockholm syndrome.)

Re: Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

#26
post #13

Grand Appification of The Web proposal does not fill me with joy. It seems like a way to drag the web backwards, in to the murk & mire that is iconified by big monolithic large applications. > The Grand Unification of Web Technologies is a proposal to unite all web technologies inside a browser creating a new, simple, more powerful and unified system. To achieve this, the functionality of HTML and CSS would be merged…

"gross and immoral" is uncalled for, and a pretty toxic way to start a conversation. And you keep saying users "expect documents" but where is that coming from? Most users on the internet today do not expect documents. I'd argue they don't really expect apps either, webpages live in kind of a world of their own. PS: I don't particularly care for this proposal, but clearly a lot of effort has gone into it and I find i…

I appreciate your attempt to be sensible & more moderate, but I don't feel like I'm overexaggerating my case. Yes, I could do a lot more work to support my case, to craft a more effective message. But this is immoral. It is highly destructive to user agency, to our ability to make extensions or to scrape pages. It is antitheical to freedom of thought, to our human liberties. I find the summation of what it implies to be a gross gross regression of human potential. Knuckling under something which is special, which is better, which has extensions, & making it become something pedestrian & mundane & inaccessible. It is gross, and to steal this power from the users would be immoral.

Re: Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

#27

"It is of utmost importance that the web should always be considered as one concept, one technology and one language, as this is the only way to avoid these unnecessary issues and to get clarity in the pursuit of substantial improvements." Weirdly fascist. No thanks.

So we’ve got a vast and beautiful ecosystem that grew up in the cracks of our planned garden.

Let’s scrap all that and build another planned garden.

Re: Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

#28

Couldn't disagree more strongly. The web worked because of its unique network architecture (REST/HATEOAS) which handles a chaotic, loosely coupled and dynamically evolving network topology extremely well. The web suffered from the fact that HTML was a limited hypertext, which hurt usability and encouraged javascript-based work arounds. So we should fix that, rather than tossing the idea of a hypertext architecture. (…

HTMX is awesome, by the way. Thank you for making it!

I use it in combination with Python dominate and tailwind.css to write UI components that I can just plug together in a dataflow model at the back-end, and so far it's working amazingly well ... it's well on it's way to becoming a no-code application and UI framework..

Re: Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

#29
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"gross and immoral" is uncalled for, and a pretty toxic way to start a conversation. And you keep saying users "expect documents" but where is that coming from? Most users on the internet today do not expect documents. I'd argue they don't really expect apps either, webpages live in kind of a world of their own. PS: I don't particularly care for this proposal, but clearly a lot of effort has gone into it and I find i…

I appreciate your attempt to be sensible & more moderate, but I don't feel like I'm overexaggerating my case. Yes, I could do a lot more work to support my case, to craft a more effective message. But this is immoral. It is highly destructive to user agency, to our ability to make extensions or to scrape pages. It is antitheical to freedom of thought, to our human liberties. I find the summation of what it implies to…

I have the same principles you do, but I think that battle is a losing one if you go at it with that mindset.

A lot of the web is already just javascript. Looking at "appification" and throwing our arms up in the air is just a form of giving up.

Rather, we should find ways to ensure that whatever direction the web takes, we can keep building powerful tools to foster the creativity and agency you and I have today, and push them to the hands of the mainstream.

Re: Grand Unification of Web Technologies Proposal

#30
If this is such a great idea, I would recommend the author of this proposal to work instead on a transpiler that converts the proposed javascript-only websites into a mix of HTML+CSS+js. If the idea catches on and, at some point in the future, people start using the transpiler almost exclusively, then the web browser developers could add direct support, and even eventually phase out support for legacy individual HTML/CSS/js files. Another benefit of implementing a transpiler first is that it would make the proposed javascript-only approach usable today.
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