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A Worsening Culture War

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Re: A Worsening Culture War

#181

Post by kanox »

notriskfree wrote: post #147
remarkEon wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The Cold War is over.

Exactly; when there was a clash of civilizations between a free west and a repressive soviet union; it made sense that Russia was the enemy. Now it is just a conflict between different European powers with varying levels of dysfunctional democracy and corrupt elites. So what is the basis for hating the Russians now; racism?

Russians are not the enemy, Russia is the enemy.

And this is based on Putin's foreign policy towards smaller neighbors that it historically controlled.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#182

Post by syshum »

rmrk wrote: post #101

was making sense until the bs "both sides" conclusion: "We have two donor-fattened parties that across decades of incompetence have each run out of convincing pitches for how to improve the lives of ordinary people." I find the ideas of fixing healthcare, reinvesting in our economy and infrastructure, and shoring up our social programs highly convincing. And I'm pretty sure the polls show those ideas resonate across…

>>I find the ideas of fixing healthcare, reinvesting in our economy and infrastructure, and shoring up our social programs highly convincing. And I'm pretty sure the polls show those ideas resonate across the political spectrum. And I only hear those ideas coming from one party.

I suspect that is because you view the "solutions" from one party as the sole legitimate "solutions" to those problems.

I.e to you the solution to the problem of expensive and inaccessible healthcare is likely to be Government Single Payer plan, and any political party or person that has a different, market solution to that problem has been deemed by you to "not really wanting to fix the problem" or some other worse kind of evil

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#183

Post by claudeganon »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #58
geerlingguy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This viewpoint (where the unstated understanding is 'the group that is good is Democrats, and the group that is evil is Republicans') is part of the problem. The world is more complicated than that.

The viewpoint that both groups are just as bad or just as good for wage earners is a problem. It’s easily verifiable that Democratic states have better laws for wage earners, and have pushed for policies that benefit wage earners. They’re nowhere near perfect, but there’s no reason to pretend Dems and Repubs are the same.

> It’s easily verifiable that Democratic states have better laws for wage earners, and have pushed for policies that benefit wage earners.

The most solidly blue state, California, just enshrined a law to screw over gig workers and has among the worst housing crises in the country for average (and below) wage earners. Both parties are not equally bad, but the idea that the Democrats support working people is pretty laughable at this point. Yes, they’re not as awful as Republicans on these issues, but that’s a pretty low bar and still so far below the wage and labor protections in places like Europe as to be laughable.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#184

Post by pjc50 »

ck425 wrote: post #129
Roritharr wrote: post #9

The craziest part of this american culture war, to me, is that it seems to spill over to the rest of the world. My sister and I, living in Germany, have a very loving relationship, but we absolutely disagree on almost everything political and basically are stuck in our seperate bubbles. This gave us an interesting observation: 5 years ago it took us about two to three months, to have a fight over something that start…

One thing I've noticed is the whole sale importation of the BLM movement to the UK. I'm not overly aware of the issue facing ethnic minorities in the UK (I live in Scotland where it's almost entirely white with some small asian communities, which isn't to say there isn't racism just few people to discuss it with personally) but from reading around racism in the UK is very different to the US. Despite this we've adopt…

> might to a symptom of London centric-ness where there is far more ethnic diversity and therefore racism

More flareups, perhaps, especially riots against the Metropolitan police, but more diversity tends to make people less racist as they actually meet people of other ethnicities rather than just repeat what they've heard about people they've never met or seen.

Was the Bristol statue teardown an import? The tactic of just dumping it in the sea was, and the "triggering event" of solidarity protests was, but the underlying question of why Bristol has a statue of a man who committed crimes against humanity had been rumbling on for years and the council had voted down even a recontextualisation plaque.

Scotland has some similar "historical benefits of slavery" questions to look at; Edinburgh's own pro-slavery politician statue (Henry Dundas) is somewhat protected by being at the top of a 150-foot column.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#185

Post by slfnflctd »

awakeasleep wrote: post #131
rmrk wrote: post #101

was making sense until the bs "both sides" conclusion: "We have two donor-fattened parties that across decades of incompetence have each run out of convincing pitches for how to improve the lives of ordinary people." I find the ideas of fixing healthcare, reinvesting in our economy and infrastructure, and shoring up our social programs highly convincing. And I'm pretty sure the polls show those ideas resonate across…

Both parties campaign on fixing healthcare. After the latest fixes, insurance for a self employed family of four is about $25k a year after insurance and deductibles.

I'm not 100% sure what the point you're making here is, but in case the reader is unaware, under the Trump administration, the ACA was definitely heavily gutted (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/14/7687316...).

Over less than 3 months, a friend of mine's monthly premium went up an order of magnitude - with reduced benefits - to the point where it made no sense to do anything but drop it completely and start seeing a doctor who takes cash.

There was nothing wrong with the concept other than the failure to include single payer. Democrats under Obama managed to come up with something less good which still was a net gain, but it was destroyed by Republicans. Just wanted to make that clear.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#186

Post by hannofcart »

This might be slightly offtopic but related to this article: what sources of conservative opinion would American conservatives on HN recommend to a liberal who genuinely wants to see things from the other perspective?

Are there any right leaning bloggers/talk show hosts that you would recommend?

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#187

Post by helaoban »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #25
PopeDotNinja wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it’s worth, I’m an American & American politics strains my American relationship with my American friends & family. Fuck this red/blue shit.

I don’t understand “red/blue” shit. For me, it’s “improving quality of life for wage earners and affirming civil liberties / vs not doing the aforementioned” shit. A cousin in my family has a very valid grievance against business owner uncles that support politicians who don’t want to provide meal breaks or bathroom breaks. This cousin has to work 12 to 14 hour shifts, and eat standing up while working and sneak in b…

You could also ask why California has the worst-maintained roads in the United States, has mountains of trash littering the center divide and shoulders of its freeways, has huge numbers of homeless people living in slums just blocks away from some of the highest wage earners (and ostensibly highest tax payers) in the country. How does California vote? That’s not “red/blue” shit.

See, I can play this game too.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#188

Post by mcphage »

Loughla wrote: post #60
bluntfang wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but neither the 2 major parties in the US are left/workers rights. I don't see any candidate running on the "improve quality of life for wage earners" platform. for example Joe "nothing with fundamentally change" Biden...and well the last 4 years.

That's what people missed about Trump's supporters in 2016. People genuinely believed he was going to work for the common man. He talked about workers rights (in a xenophobic sort of way, but still) he talked about increasing pay for blue collar workers, and about restoring the lost legacy to places that have been abandoned by globalization. That never got talked about by Trump detractors. Union working class Joe-Sch…

> Union working class Joe-Schmoe's used to vote democrat, and now solidly do not.

I don't think that matches exit polls—lower wage workers still voted primarily democrat, and higher wage workers voted primarily republican: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/...

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#189

Post by cmdshiftf4 »

notriskfree wrote: post #161
ck425 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I've noticed is the whole sale importation of the BLM movement to the UK. I'm not overly aware of the issue facing ethnic minorities in the UK (I live in Scotland where it's almost entirely white with some small asian communities, which isn't to say there isn't racism just few people to discuss it with personally) but from reading around racism in the UK is very different to the US. Despite this we've adopt…

I agree the UK is not the US and we have different issues in the UK that we are dealing with. Living and working near London I always assumed the increased ethnic diversity and global outlook in the capital led to less racism. I assumed it was the rural homogenous countryside that had more endemic racism. I guess we all misunderstand each other all the time.

>Living and working near London I always assumed the increased ethnic diversity and global outlook in the capital led to less racism.

From https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9477....

>In the short run, however, immigration and ethnic diversity tend to reduce social solidarity and social capital. New evidence from the US suggests that in ethnically diverse neighbourhoods residents of all races tend to ‘hunker down’. Trust (even of one's own race) is lower, altruism and community cooperation rarer, friends fewer.

There's plenty of secondary sources reporting on this study if you want to have a look for the varying opinions on it but I thought I'd link the source of it itself.

Whether less trust, less cohesion etc. == more racism is something I'm not in a position to draw a conclusion over, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Re: A Worsening Culture War

#190

Post by pseudalopex »

hprotagonist wrote: post #99
1986 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, like many in the civil rights movement, King leaned heavily towards socialism and economic justice (see the Poor People's Campaign) in addition to, and as an integral part of, racial justice. But the Cold War and the boogeyman of Communism meant that that was weaponized against them while the struggle was ongoing, and whitewashed from their history as they became mythologized afterwards. Unfortunately things hav…

>leaned heavily towards socialism and economic justice... Not to be too on the nose, but another equally valid phrase here is “leaned heavily towards being a christian minister”, which he was. The religious motivations of the civil rights movement are ones we seem blind to, and the only reason i can think of for it is that when i, an american, hear “christian”, i have been taught think “republican suburban or rural w…

The civil rights movement was motivated by people wanting civil rights. People on both sides claimed religious support.

Rural white Christians greatly outnumber urban Jewish Christians. Most major denominations discriminate against LGBT people. People who are super damn interested in worker rights and housing access aren't disproportionately Christians in my experience. Some are and some aren't.

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