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Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

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Re: Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

#201

Post by caffeine »

johnnycerberus wrote: post #27
SoSoRoCoCo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Friends of mine that are contract programmers have been ramping on Rust for the past 2-3 years claiming the number of requests for it has been increasing exponentially. I installed it two weeks ago and have been getting a feel for it. It's like if C++, C#, and npm had an offspring. I always hoped Java would make a comeback, but Rust is looking like the real deal.

Applications of Java and Rust do not overlap. As a big data engineer, Rust does not provide any advantage to me. Good luck rewritting all the big data tools from Java (Elasticsearch, Spark, Kafka, Hadoop, Neo4j, Deeplearning4j, Cassandra, Solr, Arrow, OrientDB) and all the scientific stuff from C++ (Eigen, Tensorflow, PyTorch, Jax, Halide, OpenCV and the multitude of resources for CUDA and OpenCL) and databases (MySQ…

I am a major fan of Rust. I upvoted your comment because it is mostly factual, and correct!

I agree that Rust is still early for most adopters.

There are a subset of people who need to solve problems that would normally be solved in C or C++, but they don't know or don't want to use those languages. Those people generally love Rust (I am in this camp).

Then there is everyone else, who either like Rust because it's a cool language, or don't for any number of reasons all of which are fine!

Re: Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

#202

Post by andrewmcwatters »

dagmx wrote: post #104
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #50

Am I just not "with it?" I don't see the appeal of Rust, but it gets the hottest talk in HN-town. Maybe it's just because I haven't worked long enough with C or C++ to complain about them (only about a decade or so), but I don't have any issues with those languages. And I find it wholly unappealing to abandon the existing corpus of literal decades of knowledge having been poured into those language ecosystems all in…

> I haven't worked long enough with C or C++ to complain about them (only about a decade or so), but I don't have any issues with those languages This may be part of the reason. Rust improves on those languages in many ways including better safety, package and build setups as well as doc setups. It's genuinely a breath of fresh air setting up and maintaining rust projects versus C++ or even Python. > I find it wholly…

I've noticed that Rust uses LLVM as well, but aren't there some significant compile time differences or am I recalling that from Go?

I do definitely wish there was an easier way to go about Rust's C FFI, though. LuaJIT has spoiled me. All you do is preprocess headers and then you have access to all of the exports without having to do any work whatsoever.

Re: Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

#203

Post by proverbialbunny »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #193
proverbialbunny wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're side stepping what I said. The point is people will downvote false facts, but rarely downvote opinions that do not have an underpinning of false facts. Furthermore, you're lying. You've gotten tons of responses here as to why some people use Rust or like Rust, yet you then continue to spout that you want what you've already have gotten.

I see what you're saying now. Separately from that, I haven't ignored any of them, and I'm replying to quite a few of them to understand more. I don't know what vested interest you have in saying I'm lying.

Not everyone has a vested interest.

Re: Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

#204

Post by falcolas »

k__ wrote: post #105
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #50

Am I just not "with it?" I don't see the appeal of Rust, but it gets the hottest talk in HN-town. Maybe it's just because I haven't worked long enough with C or C++ to complain about them (only about a decade or so), but I don't have any issues with those languages. And I find it wholly unappealing to abandon the existing corpus of literal decades of knowledge having been poured into those language ecosystems all in…

The Rust community alone is so much better than anything I've seen in my 15 year programming career. The communities of statically typed programming languages were especially elitist and gatekeeping. The Rust community is welcoming.

The meme of the Rust Evangalism Strikeforce exists for a reason - because a person can't say anything remotely uncomplementary about Rust without getting dogpiled and downvoted into oblivion.

The Rust community has proven itself, outside of the Rust specific forums, to be exceptionally elitist.

And, as shown in a sibling thread, the founders of Rust are right there on the dogpile attacking the character and dissecting the comments of any dissenters.

Re: Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

#205

Post by steveklabnik »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #195
steveklabnik wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defining your own? Absolutely. Using them at all? Basically impossible. The standard (and core) library is entirely built around it.

Perhaps Rust can be the language where I force myself to get used to them. In C++ there are stilly plenty of alternatives to not having to use templates. The reason I ask is I've preferred not to use them because I find them slightly more demanding to read. I think that's just a personal bias I need to get over.

Yeah you're not alone. Have you used concepts at all yet? Rust's generics are similar to, but different than, C++ templates generally; concepts is the closest thing C++ has to them. That being said, even when you understand them, you can create some monstrosities, just like C++.

To connect it back to your original questions, Rust relies heavily on generics because if you want runtime performance, but you also want safety, you pretty much need ways to evaluate safety at compile time, rather than runtime, so you don't have the overhead of runtime checks. This basically implies generics need to exist and be used heavily.

Re: Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

#206

Post by renewiltord »

basicneo wrote: post #198
renewiltord wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's lots of articles for the advantages of Rust. Consider just searching for some of them on Google since they will, in general, be written in a more considered fashion than a response to your comment. In an effort to be transparent, I will downvote your comment because I like novelty and interesting new things, not the nth version of a BSD is dead or Vim v Emacs discussion, which is what you're spawning.

In a post about Rust adoption, it seems on topic in a threaded forum that commonly discusses pros and cons to discuss pros and cons. This is an opportunity to educate/advocate. Someone who wants to do that might link to a good article, rather than just attempt to shut down the discussion.

Sorry, not interested in education/advocacy. Yields repetitive threads. Prefer novelty. Restricting my comments to level 1 in threads here to prevent derailing. Can discuss via email (in profile) should you so desire.

Re: Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

#207

Post by andrewmcwatters »

M2Ys4U wrote: post #190
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right in that that was the original sell, but it's not how they sell it today. "Servo’s mission is to provide an independent, modular, embeddable web engine, which allows developers to deliver content and applications using web standards." So maybe they're just not there yet? But in my opinion, if you create popular software and no one uses it, it's not popular from its adoption, it's popular for some…

> I think you're right in that that was the original sell, but it's not how they sell it today. That's a very recent change, post spin-off from Mozilla.

I guess that will take a few years then. Having only CEF and Webkit ports out there and is really hard for us out there looking at offscreen embedding.

Re: Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

#208

Post by MaxBarraclough »

TheDong wrote: post #152
est31 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome is "on track"? Last I remember they had a document explaining why it's not a good idea for them. I disagree with it, and would very much wish for Chrome to ship Rust, but they don't seem to be interested for now.

They're referring to this[0] I believe, which is not glowing, but does seem mildly optimistic. Specifically: > For now, Chrome investment in Rust will remain a background investigation (mostly directed towards prototyping these tools and techniques). If we become convinced this sort of interoperability is possible, we’ll revisit widespread use of Rust in Chrome [0]: https://www.chromium.org/Home/chromium-security/mem…

Right, and their issues there all pertain to interoperability, not to issues with the Rust language and its implementation. They seem to view Rust as production-ready, and a language that would bring relevant benefits to the Chromium project, were it not for the C++ interoperability difficulties.

Re: Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

#209

Post by vlang1dot0 »

blitblitblit wrote: post #150
vlang1dot0 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the Media Guidelines, I don't see how you came to that conclusion: > TL;DR: Most non-commercial uses of the Rust/Cargo names and logos are allowed and do not require permission; most commercial uses require permission. In either case, the most important rule is that uses of the trademarks cannot appear official or imply any endorsement by the Rust project. https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/media-guide

From the link: > Uses that require explicit approval > Distributing a modified version of the Rust programming language or the Cargo package manager and calling it Rust or Cargo requires explicit, written permission from the Rust core team. We will usually allow these uses as long as the modifications are (1) relatively small and (2) very clearly communicated to end-users. Patching for a specific architecture, distro…

Ah yes, you're totally right. I didn't realize there was quite a bit of additional content "below the fold" on that page.

Re: Why AWS loves Rust, and how we’d like to help

#210

Post by jahewson »

Thaxll wrote: post #90
gibolt wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These insights are a snapshot, not a trend line. Java can be in rapid decline and still be at the top of the list. Changing acceleration, not position, is how you make a comeback. Java is currently losing Android devs to Kotlin. That could cause a precipitous drop in direct usage in the coming years.

Java is nowhere close losing the #1/2 spot in programming language, it's just everywhere.

It's already #3 according to some rankings out there, behind JavaScript and Python. It's growth that will be the deciding factor.
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