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China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

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Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#131

Post by Barrin92 »

ga6840 wrote: post #95
jbrun wrote: post #31

Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.

So far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time), and that left us fall behind the world economically. And the latter so-called "lifted out of poverty" (a oftenly used propaganda tune in Chinese spokesmen to refute others' human rights infringement bl…

>And the latter so-called "lifted out of poverty" (a oftenly used propaganda tune in Chinese spokesmen to refute others' human rights infringement blame) is nothing but opening up the nation and letting our hardworking people to make products for the wo

if that was the case there'd be fewer poor countries on the planet. The Chinese government has made many mistakes, a lot of them quite terrible, but a lot of progress over the last few decades also is the result of successful and active governance. Statecraft is not something that just happens or that is trivial.

Even just creating an open environment and the sort of conditions that let hardworking people do what they want is difficult, successful ecosystems are built, they don't happen because everyone at the party office just drops their suitcase and goes home.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#132

Post by Can_Not »

josefresco wrote: post #5

>moderately prosperous society in all respects. >satisfaction rate among locals was over 99 percent >About 1.88 million people living in poor mountainous areas have been relocated to urban areas >Various supporting measures have been taken to ensure that at least one person on average in each relocated household gets employed. Reads like an Onion article.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of what's going on in China from my armchair atop an ivory tower, but where I live society seems increasingly in a decline of prosperity, I had to search long and hard for a job, execute and fund my relocation on my own, and most of the population had it significantly far worse than I did. But I live in a society where numerous objectively terrible Android games have 4.5/5 star ratings, so I have no trouble believing that a foreign country has a 99/100 satisfaction rating.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#133

Post by baybal2 »

xster wrote: post #129
baybal2 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history And you forget to say that the amount of people verged into absolute poverty by CPC is also the biggest shame of human history. Nowhere else in history few hundred million people verge forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewh…

It's a powerful sentiment. But it needs to withstand the objective test of demonstrating, numerically, its narrative against historical data. When the CPC took power, the GDP per capita was 54 USD in 1952 (earliest date in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China ). If you chose your words carefully and still state "forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewhat moderately industrialised economy",…

> It's a powerful sentiment. But it needs to withstand the objective test of demonstrating, numerically, its narrative against historical data.

And millions of very real starving Chinese did no need your data.

Statistical data of every Eastern bloc country was faked, and the data you cite is fake.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#134

Post by lowdose »

jbrun wrote: post #31

Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.

> one of the greatest achievements in human history

How much has the one child policy contributed to this?

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#135

Post by [deleted] »

jbrun wrote: post #87
Nginx487 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "...and rule of law" According to which law kidnappings, tortures and human organs harvesting are being performed?

I meant rule of law broadly speaking as a human invention, not specific to China. Sorry for the confusion. Pssst.... See Irak, invasion.

[deleted]

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#136

Post by Nginx487 »

libeclipse wrote: post #58
Nginx487 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "...and rule of law" According to which law kidnappings, tortures and human organs harvesting are being performed?

Hong Kong is currently enjoying China's "rule of law"

Rule of law is great, until you find yourself an outlaw just by the fact of being alive.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#137

Post by dumb1224 »

brnt wrote: post #128
dumb1224 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about lower courts such as county/city courts that deal with all local level proceedings. They function just as English magistrates/county courts. I'm not sure how the separation of power has anything to do with these local judiciary. If you talk about corruption that's a different issue. For me if these courts are exercising their judicial power legally and properly then we at least have a working civil…

https://www.worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-index/countr... Sounds like you don't read to many news papers by the way. You might want to check out what's going in in Hong Kong under Chinese pressure. Good demonstration of what the Chinese state thinks of independent judiciaries.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my comments. Yes of course I am aware of the status quo and very much following all major events. What I was commenting was the general everyday activity involving law and legal system. I don't know how you get confused but I wasn't referring to events like the Hong Kong situation, which is clearly not a local level case.

I merely want to contribute to a meaningful discussion by personal experience so I wouldn't expand to those topics (in my opinion quite sensationalised by social media). I live in Europe now and absolutely understand what the general public are interested in.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#138

Post by brnt »

dumb1224 wrote: post #137
brnt wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-index/countr... Sounds like you don't read to many news papers by the way. You might want to check out what's going in in Hong Kong under Chinese pressure. Good demonstration of what the Chinese state thinks of independent judiciaries.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my comments. Yes of course I am aware of the status quo and very much following all major events. What I was commenting was the general everyday activity involving law and legal system. I don't know how you get confused but I wasn't referring to events like the Hong Kong situation, which is clearly not a local level case. I merely want to contribute to a meaningful discussion by persona…

If you have to be wary of not stepping into territory where the state will wield its heavy hand, then I just don't see how you can maintain it is functioning at a 'local' level. What's local? It's not like the Chinese state clearly delineates the boundary. And looking at the imprisoned lawyers, local authorities are not above blocking inconvenient litigation either.

I did not link to social media, nor do I use it, so please refrain from assuming it has any influence on the point I'm making. I'm sure perfectly fine litigation has happened, it would just be foolish to count on it. Maybe you're right that with an increasingly limited issue you luck increases.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#139

Post by forgotmypw17 »

yorwba wrote: post #61
jvanderbot wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The satisfaction rate is arguably a bad metric. Would anyone in rural China tell a government surveyor they were dissatisfied with their government-supplied job? I doubt it. There's a reason this book: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1442256885/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... spends so much time talking about the problems with government-supplied housing, income, jobs, education, etc ... it makes it nearly impossible to not sid…

> Would anyone in rural China tell a government surveyor they were dissatisfied with their government-supplied job? I doubt it. Of course they would if they can. Those are two different governments: the government-supplied job is supplied by the local government, while the surveyor is sent by the provincial or central government. Complaining to them about the local government is an opportunity to have the central gov…

With respect, I don't think you've ever lived under a remotely totalitarian government.

Complaints are typically viewed by default as unpatriotic, obstructionist borderline sabotage, and only a fool would make one.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#140

Post by dumb1224 »

brnt wrote: post #138
dumb1224 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my comments. Yes of course I am aware of the status quo and very much following all major events. What I was commenting was the general everyday activity involving law and legal system. I don't know how you get confused but I wasn't referring to events like the Hong Kong situation, which is clearly not a local level case. I merely want to contribute to a meaningful discussion by persona…

If you have to be wary of not stepping into territory where the state will wield its heavy hand, then I just don't see how you can maintain it is functioning at a 'local' level. What's local? It's not like the Chinese state clearly delineates the boundary. And looking at the imprisoned lawyers, local authorities are not above blocking inconvenient litigation either. I did not link to social media, nor do I use it, so…

I don't understand what you mean by 'wary of not stepping into territory where the state will wield its heavy hand'. I was simply giving examples of the part of legal system that I know of. Pardon my English, what I call 'local' is meant to be 'civil cases' like business and personal cases. And yes of course the legal system delineates those cases from national level cases. My original argument was that civil cases largely work well (unless you prove me wrong by statistics).

I didn't make any assumption of your information sources nor did I assert any influence of social media. It was only a general statement, not about anybody in particular. It was you who 'assumed' I didn't read any news etc. I fully respect all users' opinions here and would genuinely be interested to read any reference/articles to prove your points. I'll be surprised that the imprisoned lawyer cases were happening all the time in the lower courts.

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