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Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

americanaffairsjournal.org

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Re: Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

#41

Post by TulliusCicero »

BellLabradors wrote: post #22
TulliusCicero wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as an exmo: you're correct, but also keep in mind that hiding the hurt and putting on a good face are also part of the religion. There's a reason why the cosmetic surgery billboard ads in Utah are omnipresent, and why anti-depressant usage is so high. There are absolutely some positive things about the faith, but the darker aspects are not as easily visible.

This doesn't negate your point, but part of the reason for higher anti-depressant usage is that they are less effective at altitude[0]. [0] https://unews.utah.edu/common-antidepressents-are-less-effec...

I thought the stat on high Utah anti depressant usage was based on the number of people taking them, not dosage levels. Though after a quick googling to check, I still can't tell.

Re: Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

#42

Post by bognition »

mc32 wrote: post #13
TulliusCicero wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as an exmo: you're correct, but also keep in mind that hiding the hurt and putting on a good face are also part of the religion. There's a reason why the cosmetic surgery billboard ads in Utah are omnipresent, and why anti-depressant usage is so high. There are absolutely some positive things about the faith, but the darker aspects are not as easily visible.

You could say the exact same thing regarding Los Angeles Ca.

Sure but the city of Los Angeles isn't a cult. You're free to criticize the leadership of the city, you're free to move to another city and come back and visit your friends, you're free to think whatever you want.

Re: Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

#43

Post by ericmay »

sangli wrote: post #34
ericmay wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of those countries have very homogenous populations. You also don’t hear about the bad stuff because unliked the United States they don’t have their dirty laundry being broadcast across every available medium 24/7/365.

What are you getting at? How is having homogeneous population causes less corruption in government? There are many asian and african countries with homogeneous population that are extremely corrupt. Other countries do have 24/7 TV channels and other media.

> Other countries do have 24/7 TV channels and other media.

Yea and they spend most of that time complaining about Trump. And if they aren't, then people will go to Reddit, or some social media site to do it.

> What are you getting at?

Countries with small, homogeneous populations are going to tend to be less corrupt and better governed. It's more difficult to be a jackass in Iceland than it is in Brasil.

Re: Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

#44

Post by wolfram74 »

logicchains wrote: post #10
postingpals wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a distrust in government misusing taxes, i wonder why the solution is to have less taxes, as opposed to fixing the government? I'm not being snarky I'm just genuinely curious why that is the knee jerk reaction.

>If there is a distrust in government misusing taxes, i wonder why the solution is to have less taxes, as opposed to fixing the government? Because it's a lot easier to reduce taxes (simply change tax law) than to fix the government? Especially if the government is corrupt, and wouldn't take too kindly to people trying to "fix" it.

If the government is corrupt, I interpret that as they're there for money and power(often in the form of how to spend the money), why is it is easier to get rid of the reason to be in a corrupt government than to change some of the members of said government? Feels like it'd be of comparable difficulty.

Re: Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

#45

Post by refurb »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #17
zepto wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fixing the government isn’t a ‘solution’. It’s a generally unsolved problem.

It's a problem that is solved much better in many other similarly-wealthy countries (see Norway, Switzerland) or pretty much all the other first world countries. It does not have to be perfect, it only has to be better.

Aren’t taxes quite low in Switzerland? Or at least in some Cantons?

Re: Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

#46

Post by refurb »

throw0101a wrote: post #26
roenxi wrote: post #3

> Although few might expect a consistently Republican, low-tax state like Utah to lead the way in [income homogeneity]... One article isn't a showstopper, but I really wish this didn't surprise people so much. Taxes are taking away people's surplus (I've often heard 'they don't need the money' come up in arguments about taxes, for example) and invest it in government. That means that if the government fails to do som…

> One article isn't a showstopper, but I really wish this didn't surprise people so much. It is surprising because given the rest of the "Red" states' records, Utah is an outlier: > Eighteen of the 19 poorest states have legislatures where both chambers are Republican controlled. New Mexico (46th richest, fifth poorest) is Democratic. But there isn’t another blue or purple state until you get to purple Maine (31st ri…

I think you mixing up cause and effect. Rich states tend to vote Democratic. It’s not that Democratic states lead to wealth.

California was a red state until 1992.

Re: Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

#47

Post by specialist »

I like this descriptive first hand account of policy work in Utah. Now please explain how to replicate it.

SLC's strategy for homelessness is audacious and progressive. Leftists like me sat up and took note. Why can't we do the same in our own areas?!

Utah reminds me of the Nordic countries, specifically Finland. High homogeneity allows those societies to more easily find consensus, break out of dogmatic strategies that no longer work.

One data point about homogeneity (no cite, sorry) is a study of conservative support for raising taxes. Conservatives in more homogenous areas happily raise their own taxes, at about the same rate as majority liberal areas.

FWIW, Some of Utah's approach to social problems is my kind of conservativism. I grew up in the church. We did the food banks, adopting refugee families, missionary works (rites of passage). Not knowing any better, I thought this was the norm, and that I was a conservative. While I'm not a big fan of Mormonism (or religion in general), I love that society's commitment to mutual aide.

--

Meta: I became interested in American Affairs when Ezra Klein interviewed Julius Krein.

https://www.vox.com/21528267/the-ezra-klein-show-trumpism-do...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Affairs

I love that the next generation of thinkers are reexamining big ideas with fresh eyes, that they're ignoring the framing and battle lines drawn up by Boomers and Gen X'ers (like me).

In my own activism and political participation, I've observed that Millennials (aka Gen Y?) are more interested in getting things done. Much to the consternation to most of us blue hairs. But I love it.

Re: Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

#48

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

throw0101a wrote: post #26
roenxi wrote: post #3

> Although few might expect a consistently Republican, low-tax state like Utah to lead the way in [income homogeneity]... One article isn't a showstopper, but I really wish this didn't surprise people so much. Taxes are taking away people's surplus (I've often heard 'they don't need the money' come up in arguments about taxes, for example) and invest it in government. That means that if the government fails to do som…

> One article isn't a showstopper, but I really wish this didn't surprise people so much. It is surprising because given the rest of the "Red" states' records, Utah is an outlier: > Eighteen of the 19 poorest states have legislatures where both chambers are Republican controlled. New Mexico (46th richest, fifth poorest) is Democratic. But there isn’t another blue or purple state until you get to purple Maine (31st ri…

If you use GDP per capita, which is more appropriate when comparing wealth between states, you find that the list of rich vs. poor states is more mixed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

Re: Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

#49

Post by paulryanrogers »

throwupinair wrote: post #19

Homogeneous. High trust. Purpose and meaning from religion. Conservative family centric values. This is not surprising at all. I wish more Americans had this, I wish I did.

> Purpose and meaning from religion.

Having been raised in it you're not missing much. And the baggage it comes with far outweighs any benefit.

Re: Utah’s Economic Exceptionalism

#50

Post by throw0101a »

refurb wrote: post #46
throw0101a wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One article isn't a showstopper, but I really wish this didn't surprise people so much. It is surprising because given the rest of the "Red" states' records, Utah is an outlier: > Eighteen of the 19 poorest states have legislatures where both chambers are Republican controlled. New Mexico (46th richest, fifth poorest) is Democratic. But there isn’t another blue or purple state until you get to purple Maine (31st ri…

I think you mixing up cause and effect. Rich states tend to vote Democratic. It’s not that Democratic states lead to wealth. California was a red state until 1992.

> Rich states tend to vote Democratic. It’s not that Democratic states lead to wealth.

Drilling down further, it's more about density:

> There's a decisive break between Democratic and Republican support at a population density of 800 persons/per square mile.

* https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-04-01/how-the-d...

* https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/2020-elect...

> If you follow the red state trend lines, you can clearly see that any dense, fast-growing cities that emerge in red states will be very likely to vote blue. The few that do already exist already vote blue.

> Red state voters generally prefer low-density housing, prefer to drive cars, and are sensitive to gas prices. Once population density gets to a certain level, behaviors switch: high-density housing is the norm, public transit becomes more common, and gas use (and price sensitivity) drops. Red state values are incompatible with density.

* https://davetroy.medium.com/is-population-density-the-key-to...

Down to the county level, urban centres tend to have more economic activity:

> A similar analysis for last week’s election shows these trends continuing, albeit with a different political outcome. This time, Biden’s winning base in 477 counties encompasses fully 70% of America’s economic activity, while Trump’s losing base of 2,497 counties represents just 29% of the economy. (Votes are still outstanding in 110 mostly low-output counties, and this piece will be updated as new data is reported.)

* https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/11/09/biden-v...

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