Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

isi.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 112 posts

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#61

Post by afiori »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #59
syl_sau wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, there's also a whole lot of people spreading supposedly "communist" ideas who haven't read an inch of Marx and the likes. They often tend to congregate towards campuses but sometimes you even got tenured professors who seem to only output such verbiage for the social benefit they gather from it (being seen as warrior of justice). The marxist narrative seems to be a social practice more than an establi…

>Tell a young "marxist" what Das Kapital says of e.g. immigration and watch them decompose before your eyes... Anyway, no judgement here, just a personal observation. Marx's view on immigration was largely that capitalists use it to pit the working class against itself, and that the nation state was a construct of capitalism. I'm curious why you think a Marxist would take an issue with that.

At least in the US self-proclaimed comunists are on the same side of those that want to completely decriminalize undocumented immigration and stop deportations (which arguably is almost exactly what capitalists want, an entire class of non-citizens ready to be exploited with less legal protections that they can point toward as a distraction).

The problem with comunism is not that it is a faulty ideology, but that even if you tried to start a reasonable organization about it you will be overrun by mindless ideologues.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#62

Post by jevgeni »

jiofih wrote: post #60
jevgeni wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not the same as living in excess while preaching solidarity.

Last time I checked communism was not a charity or religion.

Absolutely. That’s the whole point.

Remember: he chose to assign himself an annual allowance for “entertainment” the size of 10 of his workers’ wages.

Could he have went with just 9 wages and bump the salary of his workers a bit? Probably. Could he have contributed it to the communist cause more to drive systemic change? Probably.

But he chose not to.

You cannot adhere to the labor theory of value and make such choices without either knowing that what you do is theft, or knowing that LTV is wrong.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#63

Post by rogue7 »

dalbasal wrote: post #49
blast wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Wilde but that sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo_quia_absurdum .

Wilde (who lived 500m from where I stand) was a nuanced user of absurdity. I think what made him stand out in his day actually was that fact. He casually reflects on absurdities, contradiction, and their prerequisites rather than burying them. What Wilde is doing in this essay is giving credence to counterarguments, either between socialism and individualism or between socialism and his own, famously hedonistic chara…

> They conceded nothing and admitted no external influences

In the case of Marx this is inaccurate. Indeed, in Das Kapital he develops the Labor theory of value [0] from earlier works of David Ricardo and ... Adam Smith.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#64

Post by fnord123 »

This essays comes across as a kind of trap that is oft seen regarding people who support changing a system:

1. If you benefit from the system, you are accused of being an idiot and/or hypocrite to support changing the system.

2. If you do not benefit from the system, you are accused of sour grapes or an outsider who doesn't know what they are talking about.

The first is the criticism of various socialists such as millionaire Bernie Sanders, millionaire and model Emily Ratajkowski (who supports more egalitarian economic systems as well as various gender issues surrounding modelling and taking female intellectuals seriously), and various other actors and musicians.

It then comes to no surprise that the essay is hosted on a site devoted to right wing^W^Wconvervative views.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#65

Post by bergstromm466 »

fvdessen wrote: post #12
aaron-santos wrote: post #2

What a weird piece. The heart of the argument seems to be that if one is to be a Marxist that one must be 1) poor, and 2) chaste and to be otherwise is hypocritical. Just state the point and be done with it.

How is it not hypocritical to argue for equality and wealth redistribution and at the same time hoard wealth for yourself ?

> How is it not hypocritical to argue for equality and wealth redistribution and at the same time hoard wealth for yourself ?

Systems change over personal change.

Engels was born into a rich capitalist family. Him giving it all away does nothing to change the underlying systems.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#66

Post by boomboomsubban »

afiori wrote: post #61
boomboomsubban wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Tell a young "marxist" what Das Kapital says of e.g. immigration and watch them decompose before your eyes... Anyway, no judgement here, just a personal observation. Marx's view on immigration was largely that capitalists use it to pit the working class against itself, and that the nation state was a construct of capitalism. I'm curious why you think a Marxist would take an issue with that.

At least in the US self-proclaimed comunists are on the same side of those that want to completely decriminalize undocumented immigration and stop deportations (which arguably is almost exactly what capitalists want, an entire class of non-citizens ready to be exploited with less legal protections that they can point toward as a distraction). The problem with comunism is not that it is a faulty ideology, but that eve…

I have to imagine US communists want those undocumented immigrants to gain citizenship too, putting them firmly opposed to the wishes of the capitalists. Many of them would also view immigrants as a reaction to capitalist influence on foreign policy, putting the two sides even further apart.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#67

Post by vagrantJin »

afiori wrote: post #35
telaelit wrote: post #28

If you haven’t already read The Communist Manifesto I highly recommend that you do, it’s super short and easy to understand. Even if you’re an anti-communist you should read it to get a better understanding of what communism is. There has been so much anti-communist and anti-socialist propaganda for decades in the US that many people don’t even know the first thing about communism and socialism and will just shut the…

I come from a culture that is comparatively pro-comunism, but my personal reaction to people promoting comunism is the same as when a religious person claims that their religion is based on love, understanding, and inclusion. In the case of religion (whether or not I believe it is positive or negative) I know that there are many many dark corners that the "it is all about love" person is not talking about. Same thing…

The one thing I did take away though is neither economic system is good or bad. A good emulsion of both is the ideal. But one thing is certain, at least in my opinion. Both systems require violence to keep civil society in check. A standing military is a subtle threat by the state. Its hard to think about it. The state spends a lit of money on violence and projecting it. Why?

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#68

Post by [deleted] »

fnord123 wrote: post #54
throwaway11236 wrote: post #41

> The same formula has been known to apply to those on the demotic right of the spectrum, too: the reader may have his or her own list of candidates for inclusion among the ranks of what could be called champagne populism. False equivalence, since rightwing populists don't advocate wealth redistribution and preach egalitarianism.

They do advocate wealth redistribution: redistributing it to the wealthy.

[deleted]

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#69

Post by rbanffy »

joe_the_user wrote: post #40
eranimo wrote: post #3

About as biased as a source you can find, considering this is from the Intercollegiate Studies Institute [1], a right-wing pressure group designed to spread propaganda in college campuses. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercollegiate_Studies_Instit...

Respectfully to the moderators. I'm surprised this has decent comments given it is indeed an extraordinarily biased source and engages flagrant, extreme attacks on anything on the left. Seriously.

I think that it serves to show how used the left-leaning crowd is to such baseless attacks and how patient they are.

As far as biased sources go, this one offers an interesting view and brings up the point made elsewhere, that the people who struggle daily to put food on the table may not have the bandwidth to think about global solutions to systemic problems.

Also, it prompts me to remind people that neither Engels nor Marx told anyone they should sell all their material possessions and give to the poor. That would be Jesus and it's surprising that they are so often confused.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#70

Post by dluan »

The masthead of this site starts with:

> Filling the Void Left by Modern Higher Education. Too many college students feel isolated or attacked for questioning progressive orthodoxy and the ever-narrowing range of debate on campus.

Love to see anti intellectualism spread around HN, and again not surprised.

Post reply on HN