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Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

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Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#31

Communism is an abstraction, which "works" only for abstract Socratic and Platonic ideal societies. In 2020 it should be understood that abstractions (and models) are fundamentally different from what we call real world.

The entire world was communist from the time cave paintings were drawn in France tens of thousands of years ago, to about 10000 years ago. Whereas capitalism has only existed as the predominant economic system anywhere for a few centuries. In the US, with two economic crises in the past decade, Covid at a peak, global warming, racial strife, riots on streets etc., I am not sure what is working in the real world with…

How do you understand that the entire world was communist until 10,000 years ago?

The natural order of the world appears to more closely resemble capitalism via the "eat what you kill" philosophy.

I imagine you are imagining close-knit tribes that would share resources freely internally. If so, would you agree that tribe members that leech off of the tribe and don't contribute were likely expelled from the group?

We certainly all do seem to have this innate fear of being abandoned by our group, so I think it's fair to say that we're adapted to avoid this outcome.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#32
Currently reading his biography (he's the most famous person of my hometown :), good timing to see an article about him on HN!

Since Engels always was "the second Violine" (behind Marx), he could get away with a hedonistic lifestyle without endangering the communistic movement too much. While many may describe him as a typical "Champagnersozialist", IMO in Manchester he realised that the right action of an individual is not enough to introduce a widespread change: The owenism he experienced in Manchester was the proof (a socialist working class movement in England whose founder tried to establish good working conditions in his factories).

With this in mind, it was simply more effective for the movement to let Engels finance Marx even by running one of those capitalistic cotton factories they criticized & being financed by his family. (Instead of directly rejecting any participation in the capitalistic lifestyle (including its hedonistic pleasures) and thus having no food on the table, which means that Marx could not have just worked on "Das Kapital").

TL;DR; by doing effective altruism benefitting the communist movement, he meant to help many more workers than by living by example.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#33
post #19

As usual, I am not surprised to see this thread devolve into name calling and strawmanish idealist arguments.

The article itself is basically the same thing. It seems almost entirely fixed on describing Engels as a rich womanizer who secretly adored Christianity. It has a section about his life in Manchester that doesn't mention his life changing experience observing the slums and factories, and contains lines like

> “The middle orders must increasingly disappear until the world is divided into millionaires and paupers, into large landowners and poor farm labourers,” Engels wrote, in terms that might well have been appropriated by a Democratic presidential hopeful in 2020.

edit I looked up the quote, and it is Engels describing what he sees as the natural conclusion of the Industrial Revolution unless a total change of societal conditions occurred. Not something he was hoping happened or criticism of Britain enriching merchants as the article suggests.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#34

> "It is unpractical, and it goes against human nature. That is why it is worth carrying out." This citation of Oscar Wilde made me curious. It's from his essay The Soul of Man under Communism[1], which turns out to be a really good counterview to the article itself. [1] https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/wilde-oscar/soul-...

I love Wilde but that sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo_quia_absurdum.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#35

If you haven’t already read The Communist Manifesto I highly recommend that you do, it’s super short and easy to understand. Even if you’re an anti-communist you should read it to get a better understanding of what communism is. There has been so much anti-communist and anti-socialist propaganda for decades in the US that many people don’t even know the first thing about communism and socialism and will just shut the…

I come from a culture that is comparatively pro-comunism, but my personal reaction to people promoting comunism is the same as when a religious person claims that their religion is based on love, understanding, and inclusion.

In the case of religion (whether or not I believe it is positive or negative) I know that there are many many dark corners that the "it is all about love" person is not talking about.

Same thing with comunism, I have known in my life people I would be slightly afraid to see holding power flying that banner and we all know what happened many times in history, and while this can be said of many ideology in my opinion the comunism cluster looks like it is trying to sweep the dust under the rug.

I am sure that there are a lot of people that are trying their best to rehabilitate comunism from the curse that Stalin and many many others have cast and I wish them the best of luck, but I do not think that their job is close to being done.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#36

Communism is an abstraction, which "works" only for abstract Socratic and Platonic ideal societies. In 2020 it should be understood that abstractions (and models) are fundamentally different from what we call real world.

The entire world was communist from the time cave paintings were drawn in France tens of thousands of years ago, to about 10000 years ago. Whereas capitalism has only existed as the predominant economic system anywhere for a few centuries. In the US, with two economic crises in the past decade, Covid at a peak, global warming, racial strife, riots on streets etc., I am not sure what is working in the real world with…

Hey, could you please not use HN primarily for ideological battle? It's not what this site is for, and I had to go back to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24212372 to find a post (a fine one!) that wasn't like that. That's a 20:1 ratio, which is definitely not the balance we're looking for here; the other way around would be more like it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#37

If you haven’t already read The Communist Manifesto I highly recommend that you do, it’s super short and easy to understand. Even if you’re an anti-communist you should read it to get a better understanding of what communism is. There has been so much anti-communist and anti-socialist propaganda for decades in the US that many people don’t even know the first thing about communism and socialism and will just shut the…

Funnily enough, there's also a whole lot of people spreading supposedly "communist" ideas who haven't read an inch of Marx and the likes. They often tend to congregate towards campuses but sometimes you even got tenured professors who seem to only output such verbiage for the social benefit they gather from it (being seen as warrior of justice). The marxist narrative seems to be a social practice more than an established theory (and I get it, it's great to have a reason to gather under the same banner, I did this for some time). On this topic, the pamphlet "Militancy: highest stage of alienation" offers some good points.

I live in France and many old classic 'marxianists' I know have come to despise the unread and uncultured new generation. Tell a young "marxist" what Das Kapital says of e.g. immigration and watch them decompose before your eyes... Anyway, no judgement here, just a personal observation.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#38

Communism is an abstraction, which "works" only for abstract Socratic and Platonic ideal societies. In 2020 it should be understood that abstractions (and models) are fundamentally different from what we call real world.

The entire world was communist from the time cave paintings were drawn in France tens of thousands of years ago, to about 10000 years ago. Whereas capitalism has only existed as the predominant economic system anywhere for a few centuries. In the US, with two economic crises in the past decade, Covid at a peak, global warming, racial strife, riots on streets etc., I am not sure what is working in the real world with…

No, private property, which is a capitalist institution, has existed since prehistoric times, probably from even since before Homo Sapiens arose. Proto-property-rights are also observed in the Animal Kingdom, with principles like "first possession", where the first animal to the kill is less likely to give up the kill, and the second animal more likely to give it up, often governing animal interactions. In fact, game theory experiments demonstrate that observance of this proto-property principle reduces conflict among agents, so it's unsurprising that it's common among animal species.

Returning to humans, extant hunter gatherer groups observe property rights, both at a personal level, with their ownership of tools and clothes:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2999363/

>>Moveable material property, such as tools, clothing, and valuables, is generally treated as individual property

And on the inter-tribal level, with tribes asserting exclusive control over the territory that they exploit.

Food sharing is common in hunterer gatherer societies, but almost all of it is intra-tribal, meaning to relatively close kin. Even within the tribe, such sharing is heavily biased by kin selection.

Food sharing is often very reciprocal as well, with an expectation of a return in exchange for the 'gift'. This is also demonstrated to some extent experimentally:

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1740/2930

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#39
> Of course, Engels is far from the only example of the leftist firebrand whose inherited wealth insulated him from the struggles of ordinary working people

Yeah, it's kind of to be expected: theorists (firebrand or not) are for obvious reasons disproportionately of the intelligentsia, and under capitalism (or the modern mixed economy) even the proletarian intelligentsia (much less the petit and, even moreso, haut bourgeois intelligentsia) tend to be quite well off compared to the mass of the proletariat.

People who are expending all their energy dealing with the immediate struggle that capitalism imposes on the proletariat aren't developing models of the long-term problems and solutions.

Re: Engels: The Communist as Hedonist

#40
post #3

About as biased as a source you can find, considering this is from the Intercollegiate Studies Institute [1], a right-wing pressure group designed to spread propaganda in college campuses. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercollegiate_Studies_Instit...

Respectfully to the moderators. I'm surprised this has decent comments given it is indeed an extraordinarily biased source and engages flagrant, extreme attacks on anything on the left.

Seriously.

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