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Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

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Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#141

Post by bwb »

bluGill wrote: post #140
bwb wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would put forward the following... Teaching personal responsibility is like parenting, it is about the thousands of actions and needing to get it right ~70% of the time. And, that mostly relies on parents, role models, and culture. The government forgiving debt one time isn't going to cause to hurt personal responsibility. It is a small gift to try to fix a system that is super broken. And, it might be the only thi…

If you had given me 10k when I graduated it would have helped me a lot too. Are you going to give every college graduate 10k?

Me? No I don't have that much money :)

I'd love for my tax dollars to go to help people be better off financially because that is good for society/country/economy. I'd love for my tax dollars to go toward the IRS as they are super understaffed. I'd love for my tax dollars to go toward subsidizing college and getting costs lower. I'd love for my tax dollars to go toward helping people who are unemployed.

Do you get mad that you pay into car insurance and never crash?

Gov = insurance, just because you don't use every program isn't a bad thing. If your kid needs it one day it will be for them.

I just don't get this super selfish thing. I want a stronger culture/society/economy/country.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#142

Post by bluGill »

bwb wrote: post #141
bluGill wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had given me 10k when I graduated it would have helped me a lot too. Are you going to give every college graduate 10k?

Me? No I don't have that much money :) I'd love for my tax dollars to go to help people be better off financially because that is good for society/country/economy. I'd love for my tax dollars to go toward the IRS as they are super understaffed. I'd love for my tax dollars to go toward subsidizing college and getting costs lower. I'd love for my tax dollars to go toward helping people who are unemployed. Do you get ma…

Problems is in this country the Republicans belive the nature of government is incompetent and so they cut it. Democrats believe that government is competent at whatever and doesn't care about waste. Either way you lose giving government more as nobody is ensuring that money doesn't go to waste.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#143

Post by bwb »

bluGill wrote: post #142
bwb wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me? No I don't have that much money :) I'd love for my tax dollars to go to help people be better off financially because that is good for society/country/economy. I'd love for my tax dollars to go toward the IRS as they are super understaffed. I'd love for my tax dollars to go toward subsidizing college and getting costs lower. I'd love for my tax dollars to go toward helping people who are unemployed. Do you get ma…

Problems is in this country the Republicans belive the nature of government is incompetent and so they cut it. Democrats believe that government is competent at whatever and doesn't care about waste. Either way you lose giving government more as nobody is ensuring that money doesn't go to waste.

ya, although i think democrats should get more credit for waste cutting. There is a tendency to equivocate when in fact republicans have gone uber extreme, where as democrats are merely competent.

Money going directly to people is good.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#144

Post by thomastjeffery »

supernova87a wrote: post #139
thomastjeffery wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one can move to a different city until they can find a house or apartment they can rent. The only significant difference between buying property and renting it is that renters get to exploit tenants. > I really think you need to think about unintended consequences. Not even unintended -- like, kindergarten 0th order effects. Like I said, this is a serious idea that has existed for decades, not some trivial thing I…

If I appear to talk down to you, it's because by and large people who seriously believe that such an idea is theoretically (not to say even in practice) good (or beneficial) are thinking at a child's level and not responsible for running a society. Fundamentally upending a system that has brought prosperity to generations of people because it has become marginally harder for some today -- that's mature and responsibl…

> If I appear to talk down to you, it's because by and large people who seriously believe that such an idea is theoretically (not to say even in practice) good (or beneficial) are thinking at a child's level and not responsible for running a society.

In other words, if you appear to be talking down to me, it is because you are. I got that.

> Fundamentally upending a system that has brought prosperity to generations of people because it has become marginally harder for some today -- that's mature and responsible? Everyone should just share?

"Fundamentally upending" is your categorization, not mine. What you call, "brought prosperity to generations of people" is what I call, "concentrated wealth into the hands of a tiny tiny fraction of society". That's not a thing I am proud of. I don't call the system that made that happen "mature" or "responsible". The reality of those people "not sharing" has devastating effects for millions of others. Four hundred men's "prosperity" is literally millions' poverty.

> Let me guess, on some of the other discussions on HN you would be of the position that people should have the right to repair their mobile phones themselves, control what software runs on their computers, etc. etc? And yet, you would propose interfering with people's most fundamental desire to control and do what they want with the house they own?

Yes. Abolishing rental contracts for housing in no way conflicts with those other things. In fact, abolishing rental housing contracts would put more people in a position to do what they want with the house they live in.

You see, people predominately do not rent their computers. People in general don't pay half of their income for permission to rent someone else's computer because they can't afford to buy their own. If they did, they would fundamentally not be able to access the right to repair that computer or arbitrarily run whatever software they want on it.

Can your ideologue brain handle it, or does it break too many rules?

Someday you might learn that your current perspective isn't the ultimate best way of thinking ever. Or you won't. The latter is looking more likely at the moment.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#145

Post by thomastjeffery »

jessedhillon wrote: post #121
thomastjeffery wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's decidedly not the needy who'd receive the most relief from this policy. That was never the claim. Student loan forgiveness is not universal basic income, medicare, food stamps, etc. It is not designed to overcome poverty. That's a totally separate problem that needs attention. Are you saying you expect every tax dollar to go to the poor first? Clearly you aren't basing your expectations on the status quo: We s…

My claim is that "people have student debt" is not one of societies issues. That some people have debt may be, but the question there is, who these people are and whether their educations are performing for them, not simply that the debt exists. Focusing on the debt is a red herring that conveniently rewards elites and others who are doing just fine. Focusing on whether universities are actually doing what they claim…

Focusing on the benefit to elites is a red herring that conveniently ignores the poor/middle-class, who are in need.

Focusing on universities is a closely related, but separate issue. It does need to be tackled, but that does not change the existing situation of the current victims.

My entire point is that student loan forgiveness shouldn't be discounted out-of-hand simply because it doesn't fix everything or that it benefits some people you don't want to benefit.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#146

Post by thomastjeffery »

fr11 wrote: post #126
thomastjeffery wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that UBI is a better solution. Is UBI on the table, though? Are we really looking at the choice between UBI, Student Loan Forgiveness, or both? All I am seeing is the dream of either, and the reality of neither. Right-wing conservatives - informed here by Murdoch press - are obsessed with defending the "neither" option, because anything else is evil Socialism.

I think there's more potential to convince the right wing and the center of UBI than student loan forgiveness. Certainly I think we're making a better society if we are able to do so. The problem with the UBI is that a livable UBI is too expensive for us to afford right now - even at 11k, it's much bigger than the entire US federal discretionary budget. A much smaller UBI that grows with time, though, maybe.

> I think there's more potential to convince the right wing and the center of UBI than student loan forgiveness.

> The problem with the UBI is that a livable UBI is too expensive for us to afford right now

Those two statements contradict each other.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#147

Post by jayd16 »

RhysU wrote: post #110
jayd16 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you guys realize the loans would dry up for frivolous schooling. The bank would understand you could file for bankruptcy and evaluate the loan accordingly.

Which schooling is frivolous? The GP could really want to be a professional pilot for all the bank knows.

It's not about what the bank thinks of the schooling itself. The bank will evaluate your ability to pay and your risk of bankruptcy.
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