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Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

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Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#71

Post by Larrikin »

supernova87a wrote: post #63
Larrikin wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logical conclusion to your argument is that government should never do anything to help the citizenry unless it benefits every single person. Most people are not vindictive against people who received help. As an example there were people who lost their jobs during this pandemic and I was lucky enough not to. The people who lost their jobs received an extra 600 dollars on top of their normal unemployment. This be…

Nope, I didn't say that we should not help ever unless it benefits everyone. I'm saying that when you implicitly pick a group to help over others, you'd better be careful about the incentives and signals it gives on what you want to happen next time. As I said, it would be more reasonable to give everyone a credit, not forgive debt.

But why is it more reasonable to give a credit? The goal is to reduce the amount of people who are putting off major life decisions because they are deep in debt from society forcing them to get an expensive degree. The people who have gotten out from under that burden are no long bringing society down. I don't get a check from the unemployment office after the fact if they ever increase the amount of unemployment people get. Its just a benefit I did not get.

I think the more reasonable thing would be to forgive debt AND find a solution to making sure nobody else has to suffer from crushing debt for education. Make community college free, heavily subsidize people who go to public colleges, etc.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#72

Post by supernova87a »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #60
supernova87a wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be surprised, as a practical matter, that many people in the world are not happy when their prudent choices are invalidated by a change in the government policy in favor of others who took the opposite choice as you. And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so. People working and making material sacrifices over their lifetimes only to see those burdens lifted for others are not a small edge ca…

> How do you feel? How does that take higher precedence than the literal financial situation of millions of people? > Your colleague has been a low performer consistently You are painting a very different picture here. People by and large don't get into unrecoverable student loan debt because they are low performers. Many of them achieve excellent grades. Their work is simply not compensated. So here in your metaphor…

How do we feel and how does it matter more than someone's bank account? It starts to, if it determines what we're going to do next, when provided certain incentives and systems in which to behave.

Yes, loan forgiveness isn't a perpetual system (as in my example), for the student receiving it. Obviously. It's perpetual if you do that for every class into the future.

And yes, I said openly in my preface that the picture I'm painting is to illustrate the point of incentives and policies -- not to say at all that student debt holders are underperformers. You miss my point if so.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#73

Post by jessedhillon »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #67
jessedhillon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This analysis breaks out share of debt by family income and student earning quintiles: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/06/28/who-owes-... Their sources are also linked from that post. Going by student earnings, the top 40% of earners owe almost 60% of the debt. Going by family incomes has about the same distribution. None of the lower three quintiles are breaking ~15% of borrowing. This is absolutely a g…

> > the top 40% of earners owe almost 60% of the debt. > This is absolutely a gift to the wealthy. I think you need to look up the definition of "absolute". You left out 60% of your whole.

hyperbole notwithstanding, the greatest share of the debt is owed by the minority who has the greatest ability to pay. That's the salient point. The lower earning majority has lower debt on a per-capita and aggregated basis.

This is certainly a benefit disproportionately for high earners from wealthy backgrounds.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#74

Post by cscurmudgeon »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #61
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shelter is even more important and fundamental than education. Will the government be taking care of mortgages next?

That would be great. Maybe they can abolish landlords while they are at it. Oh, are we meant to be afraid of these solutions?

Why not get rid of personal property. Lets start with you.

> Oh, are we meant to be afraid of these solutions?

Not afraid, but how about we spend a non-zero amount of brain power seeing if that is good or not rather than painting opponents as cowardly?

Is asking to think too much to ask?

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#75

Post by ryandrake »

supernova87a wrote: post #16
happytoexplain wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically) I think you might be surprised by how many people in that situation would be happy for those who benefited, even at the same time that they are upset that they landed on the other side of t…

I think you might be surprised, as a practical matter, that many people in the world are not happy when their prudent choices are invalidated by a change in the government policy in favor of others who took the opposite choice as you. And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so. People working and making material sacrifices over their lifetimes only to see those burdens lifted for others are not a small edge ca…

> many people in the world are not happy when their prudent choices are invalidated by a change in the government policy in favor of others who took the opposite choice as you. And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so.

Sorry, but they are called selfish because they are selfish. And, they are part of the reason we can't make any changes for the common good anymore. We can't seem to politically make things easier that were previously difficult. This "I suffered to do X, therefore everyone in the future must suffer to do X" is a toxic, progress-limiting, and quintessentially American point of view. Same logic as "We can't have universal healthcare, because I have been paying so long for my own healthcare!" and "We can't relax immigration policies, because when I immigrated, it was difficult!" and "We can't take care of our poor elderly because I paid my own 401K for decades!"

I paid back over $200K in student loans over more than a decade. I'm glad they're paid, finally. Not having them hanging around my neck is helping me financially get on track. If there is a chance someone younger than me (maybe even my own kids) can go through his or her life without that burden, I am all for it. Their success does not diminish mine.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#76

Post by thomastjeffery »

underseacables wrote: post #27
aliceryhl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic is that when you give money or subsidize some group, then that is not _necessarily_ bad. Maybe it really is bad, but the fact that it involves giving money to a specific group is not enough to conclude that.

But the true logic of American government and finance is that if something is good you tax and regulate into the ground, until you’re then forced to subsidize it. The often-attributed quote to Reagan sounds globe but it makes a lot of sense. We should be throwing more responsibility at the system, not money.

> But the true logic of American government...Reagan.

Reaganomics isn't "the true logic of American government". Reagan's administration ended in 1990.

> We should be throwing more responsibility at the system, not money.

That's a false dichotomy. We can do both.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#77

Post by perlpimp »

supernova87a wrote: post #5

When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for tax evasion), I raised the point that this might not be seen as fair by everyone and I was immediately criticized by some friends. I cautioned that it's fine for a private individual to do whatever he wants, but watch out if you apply this some day to the govern…

Playing time travel with dire problems at hand is some kind snobbery. There are gradations and people for example being crushed by non-bankruptcy discharageable debt vs some people having their feelings hurt is exactly where epathy is coming in. Those who did well by not having student debt are better that those who ended up in that situation.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#78

Post by thomastjeffery »

drewg123 wrote: post #10
supernova87a wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your logic being that any time we give money or subsidize some group, it must be good?

I honestly think that we need to stop thinking about "subsidize some group". The more effort we spend making sure that somebody doesn't get something they don't deserve, the worse off we are. Let's just have a UBI rather than lots of bureaucracy keeping score.

I agree that UBI is a better solution.

Is UBI on the table, though? Are we really looking at the choice between UBI, Student Loan Forgiveness, or both?

All I am seeing is the dream of either, and the reality of neither.

Right-wing conservatives - informed here by Murdoch press - are obsessed with defending the "neither" option, because anything else is evil Socialism.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#79

Post by defertoreptar »

voisin wrote: post #25
underseacables wrote: post #21

Any debt forgiveness in the first world is essentially a transfer of wealth, and it forgives everyone who very well could have paid, but hung out to get it forgiven. I took out a loan and it took me years to pay it off, why can’t others do the same.

Depends on when you took your loan and what the cost of tuition was then, but this is really about reversing the insane inflation that only came about as a result of the loans in the first place.

What inflation are you referring to.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#80

Post by thomastjeffery »

jessedhillon wrote: post #73
thomastjeffery wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > the top 40% of earners owe almost 60% of the debt. > This is absolutely a gift to the wealthy. I think you need to look up the definition of "absolute". You left out 60% of your whole.

hyperbole notwithstanding, the greatest share of the debt is owed by the minority who has the greatest ability to pay. That's the salient point. The lower earning majority has lower debt on a per-capita and aggregated basis. This is certainly a benefit disproportionately for high earners from wealthy backgrounds.

God forbid the rich get richer.

Meanwhile, the 60% of people you didn't mention - the ones with only 40% of debt owed - are in a crisis.

You are saying that we must deny those people assistance, because we would also end up helping others who aren't in crisis, and doing so is unpalatable.

So where is the solution for the people in crisis?

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