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Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

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Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#61

Post by thomastjeffery »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #50
happytoexplain wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically) I think you might be surprised by how many people in that situation would be happy for those who benefited, even at the same time that they are upset that they landed on the other side of t…

Shelter is even more important and fundamental than education. Will the government be taking care of mortgages next?

That would be great. Maybe they can abolish landlords while they are at it.

Oh, are we meant to be afraid of these solutions?

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#62

Post by hprotagonist »

supernova87a wrote: post #58
hprotagonist wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine how you would feel if you were from a family that had scrimped and saved to send you to college, you worked night jobs, etc. Only to find that at the end everyone else who had taken out loans had them forgiven (basically). An old, old complaint. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_... ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who…

An old old complaint, yes -- meaning that it diminishes the legitimacy of the complaint and we should have gotten over this schoolchild thinking years ago? Or that it's a fundamental feeling in human beings and we'd better be careful to take it into account?

“warning, haters are gonna hate” is always worth keeping in mind, of course.

then you tell these sorts of stories and hope that people admit that “i got mine so screw you” is a bad way to live.

it does not mean that student loan forgiveness can’t happen, or that societies are somehow forbidden from acting altruistically because people are going to have this feeling. It does mean you need to be ready for it.

For myself, my undergrad degree cost about $250k, and nobody gave me a scholarship, and i am overjoyed if someone else doesn’t have to play that idiotic game.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#63

Post by supernova87a »

Larrikin wrote: post #56
supernova87a wrote: post #5

When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for tax evasion), I raised the point that this might not be seen as fair by everyone and I was immediately criticized by some friends. I cautioned that it's fine for a private individual to do whatever he wants, but watch out if you apply this some day to the govern…

The logical conclusion to your argument is that government should never do anything to help the citizenry unless it benefits every single person. Most people are not vindictive against people who received help. As an example there were people who lost their jobs during this pandemic and I was lucky enough not to. The people who lost their jobs received an extra 600 dollars on top of their normal unemployment. This be…

Nope, I didn't say that we should not help ever unless it benefits everyone. I'm saying that when you implicitly pick a group to help over others, you'd better be careful about the incentives and signals it gives on what you want to happen next time.

As I said, it would be more reasonable to give everyone a credit, not forgive debt.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#64

Post by linspace »

bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #35
drewg123 wrote: post #3

Opinions like this are why we can't have nice things in the USA. People look at some subgroup getting a benefit and are encouraged to think "Why should they get this thing when I get nothing? These people don't deserve it" and so they block the new benefit, and we fall farther and farther behind countries like the Nordics, where this is somehow not a problem.

The government’s money all comes from taxes. If the government pays out money to people that aren’t you, it’s as if you had paid them directly and skipped paying taxes. If you wouldn’t want to give someone free money then you similarly shouldn’t want your government to give them that money.

Not really true. The government adds coordinated action and scale in situations where individual action is ineffective. Also, there are a lot of issues about which I simply don't have enough knowledge to have an opinion.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#65

Post by thomastjeffery »

rsync wrote: post #53
drewg123 wrote: post #3

Opinions like this are why we can't have nice things in the USA. People look at some subgroup getting a benefit and are encouraged to think "Why should they get this thing when I get nothing? These people don't deserve it" and so they block the new benefit, and we fall farther and farther behind countries like the Nordics, where this is somehow not a problem.

"Opinions like this are why we can't have nice things in the USA. People look at some subgroup getting a benefit and are encouraged to think "Why should they get this thing when I get nothing? These people don't deserve it"" That is the price of diversity. Diversity, which is neither bad nor good , has benefits and costs. My very diverse country invented jazz music and snowboarding and the Internet. We also lack the…

So eliminating poverty would eliminate diversity?

Nonsense.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#66

Post by JoeAltmaier »

vorpalhex wrote: post #55
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though student payments went largely to administrators? That this didn't used to be the case? That students (of every economic class) paid rich white dudes to sit in offices and pretend to run a college? How is forgiving this loan anything but relief to young people who were essentially stuck either being that low-income group you are so fond of, or paying through the nose?

You don't get out of a loan because you don't like the skin color or wealth class of the receiving party. Should we forgive mortgages because the payments go to bankers? Many of us did pay off our loans or took less loans then we could have and we did that knowing loans are to be paid back.

Well, that's a good point. The BUI addresses that. The money men have learned to skim off of every transaction, which inevitably ends up with them having all the money. This is a new thing too.

It's very moral and hardworking of us older folks who lived in a different time and paying loans didn't take half a lifetime. But this whole conversation is about how that world is gone, and young people (in America) are behind the 8-ball.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#67

Post by thomastjeffery »

jessedhillon wrote: post #43
drewg123 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a citation to back this up? I admit my knowledge is anecdotal, but I know somebody in their 20s, who went to college, and is in debt that would be cancelled. This person was the first in their family to go to college, and was unable to find a job in their field. Most of this persons peers are in a similar situation with respect to debt and being unable to find jobs in their field. The jobs these people ha…

This analysis breaks out share of debt by family income and student earning quintiles: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/06/28/who-owes-... Their sources are also linked from that post. Going by student earnings, the top 40% of earners owe almost 60% of the debt. Going by family incomes has about the same distribution. None of the lower three quintiles are breaking ~15% of borrowing. This is absolutely a g…

> > the top 40% of earners owe almost 60% of the debt.

> This is absolutely a gift to the wealthy.

I think you need to look up the definition of "absolute". You left out 60% of your whole.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#68

Post by Shalle135 »

Larrikin wrote: post #56
supernova87a wrote: post #5

When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for tax evasion), I raised the point that this might not be seen as fair by everyone and I was immediately criticized by some friends. I cautioned that it's fine for a private individual to do whatever he wants, but watch out if you apply this some day to the govern…

The logical conclusion to your argument is that government should never do anything to help the citizenry unless it benefits every single person. Most people are not vindictive against people who received help. As an example there were people who lost their jobs during this pandemic and I was lucky enough not to. The people who lost their jobs received an extra 600 dollars on top of their normal unemployment. This be…

What about the fed buying bonds? This has been going on for a long time and the only people who profits from this is people in debt since it keeps the interests down.

This in turn makes other people willing to pay more for whatever person x invested in with the accumulated debt, since debt is cheap and backed by the gov, people today rarely see it is a risk anymore.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#69

Post by supernova87a »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #61
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shelter is even more important and fundamental than education. Will the government be taking care of mortgages next?

That would be great. Maybe they can abolish landlords while they are at it. Oh, are we meant to be afraid of these solutions?

Well now we can't pass up the opportunity to hear about this. How would that one work? The landlords bit?

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#70

Post by thomastjeffery »

535188B17C93743 wrote: post #19
thomastjeffery wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need to do this the other way around. Why does it matter what order these are done?

Paying it off now doesn't fix the problem––it's a bandaid.

Doing one doesn't accomplish the other.

So again I ask, why does the order matter?

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