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Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

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Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#81

Post by bigbubba »

xupybd wrote: post #69
bigbubba wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxing milage directly seems to have worse distribution properties than taxing gas. Here is what I mean: Suppose I am driving from New York to Alaska; I fill up my car with gas then drive into Ontario. I have now paid New York a gas tax but I'm driving on Ontario roads; Ontario gets paid nothing for this wear and tear.. until I run out of gas inside Ontario. Then Ontario gets their cut. This continues all the way unt…

Pay as you go roads? RFID tag for your car with roads reading your entrance and exit. Then a bill at the end of the month from a single body that then divides the tax back to the area that maintains the various roads you used. High traffic roads get proportional funding. You could even have seamless integration with private roads. If someone thinks they can make money out of an expensive by pass the government doesn'…

That seems like an implementation of the 'mass surveillance' solution to distribution. That probably appeals to many politicians, but to me that is intolerable.

It would also require different governments to cooperate; New York would have to be able and willing to redistribute part of my milage tax to a foreign country when that country says my car has been there. I don't know if that's feasible, but cynically I assume it would be difficult at best to put into practice.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#82

Post by dmurray »

Lammy wrote: post #59
jdhn wrote: post #9

I don't understand the opposition to this. These vehicles continue to use roads but don't pay any taxes that would help maintain roads if they were gas or diesel cars. How is that fair?

Probably a lot of Tesla owners on here upset at the thought of losing any of the privilege it brings. Full EVs do more damage to the road than ICE vehicles since they’re a lot heavier. I’m totally pro-EV, but we should definitely pay some part of the tax necessary to maintain the roads we drive on. Some quick searches show: Mazda MX-5 Miata MY2020 base curb weight: 2403lbs Toyota Prius MY2020 base curb weight: 3010lb…

That's an incredibly disingenuous comparison. The Miata is a two-passenger roadster, and one of the lightest cars on the road. The Model 3 is a 4-door sedan.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#83

Post by adrianN »

9HZZRfNlpR wrote: post #79
adrianN wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because road damage is proportional to axle weight to the fourth power.

But EVs themselves are very heavy compared to similar gas powered cars.

A truck still does orders of magnitude more damage. "To the fourth power" makes a big difference.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#84

Post by SECProto »

zozbot234 wrote: post #34
recursive wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read somewhere that road damage caused by vehicles is not linear with weight. Heavy vehicles do much more damage. I can't cite a source, but I recall an exponent between 3 and 4 on the leading term. With that in mind, everything but heavy freight is basically negligible. And then it's generally for businesses where privacy isn't so much of an issue.

This is true, but some portion of road maintenance costs is independent from vehicle-caused wear-and-tear on the actual road surface. You would want this portion to be paid also by standard, non-commercial vehicles since these users are clearly receiving some value from the existence of a well-maintained road.

> This is true, but some portion of road maintenance costs is independent from vehicle-caused wear-and-tear on the actual road surface.

Possible formula to account for all the variables:

annual tax = F * (A + [BC{D^E} ] )

A = constant for non-loading based degradation (frost heave, slope maintenance). Base tax

B = constant to scale the following terms

C = distance driven in km

D = axial weight

E = exponent to account for non-linear relationship of axial weight to road degradation

F = adjustment for usage (could adjust for anything - user type, income class, vehicle class, etc etc)

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#85

Post by xd »

adrianN wrote: post #83
9HZZRfNlpR wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But EVs themselves are very heavy compared to similar gas powered cars.

A truck still does orders of magnitude more damage. "To the fourth power" makes a big difference.

What about EV trucks?

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#86

Post by Lammy »

dmurray wrote: post #82
Lammy wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a lot of Tesla owners on here upset at the thought of losing any of the privilege it brings. Full EVs do more damage to the road than ICE vehicles since they’re a lot heavier. I’m totally pro-EV, but we should definitely pay some part of the tax necessary to maintain the roads we drive on. Some quick searches show: Mazda MX-5 Miata MY2020 base curb weight: 2403lbs Toyota Prius MY2020 base curb weight: 3010lb…

That's an incredibly disingenuous comparison. The Miata is a two-passenger roadster, and one of the lightest cars on the road. The Model 3 is a 4-door sedan.

I tried to think of a fun car that goes fast and a thicc hatchback that can carry stuff, because the Tesla is kinda both :D

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#87

Post by oh_sigh »

bigbubba wrote: post #81
xupybd wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay as you go roads? RFID tag for your car with roads reading your entrance and exit. Then a bill at the end of the month from a single body that then divides the tax back to the area that maintains the various roads you used. High traffic roads get proportional funding. You could even have seamless integration with private roads. If someone thinks they can make money out of an expensive by pass the government doesn'…

That seems like an implementation of the 'mass surveillance' solution to distribution. That probably appeals to many politicians, but to me that is intolerable. It would also require different governments to cooperate; New York would have to be able and willing to redistribute part of my milage tax to a foreign country when that country says my car has been there. I don't know if that's feasible, but cynically I assu…

You know that's already happening right? For example, SunPass in FL will bill you by your license plate as you go through automatic readers, and mail you a bill to California if that is where your car is registered.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#88

Post by oh_sigh »

adrianN wrote: post #77
dmurray wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's likely most electricity for EVs will be consumed at home, though.

In Germany, water used for watering your lawn is taxed differently from water you use to fill your tub. I'm sure we could mandate a separate meter for recharging cars.

But regardless of whether you charge your EV at home or at a supercharger, you will almost certainly be using it on public roads.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#89

Post by 0xfaded »

gambiting wrote: post #75
horsawlarway wrote: post #6

I'm not really sure there's a good answer here. Fuel tax is 43 cents a litre. Australian cars right now avg about 13.1 litres per 100km. So you're looking at ~$5.6 per 100km for fuel tax. This tax is adding $2.5 tax per 100km for electric. Right now, EVs are absolutely creating an regressive tax situation with regards to fuel. Those who can afford to buy newer, efficient cars can usually save money on tax over those…

"Australian cars right now avg about 13.1 litres per 100km" Wait, that can't be true. That's an insane number if correct. Here in EU a car that averages 7-8L/100km is considered to have poor fuel economy. My previous car was a Mercedes AMG that over 4 years averaged 12L/100km and that was considered absolutely abysmal by everyone, people were wondering how I can afford the fuel for it. And you're telling me that the…

  1. Ford Ranger
  2. Toyota Hilux
  3. Toyota Rav4
  4. Hyundai i30
  5. Mazda CX5
  6. Toyota Land Cruiser
13.1L/100km seems pretty good in context.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#90

Post by jdhn »

adrianN wrote: post #43
jdhn wrote: post #9

I don't understand the opposition to this. These vehicles continue to use roads but don't pay any taxes that would help maintain roads if they were gas or diesel cars. How is that fair?

Gas and diesel cars don't pay for the damage they cause to the climate, or for the local air pollution. How is that fair?

That's a completely separate issue from what I brought up. The fact is that EV owners don't pay maintenance taxes that are captured through gas taxes, and are complaining when they have to pay additional fees at other times such as registration.
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