Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax • Hacker News Board

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#61

Post by wldcordeiro » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:19 PM UTC

horsawlarway wrote: post #6

I'm not really sure there's a good answer here. Fuel tax is 43 cents a litre. Australian cars right now avg about 13.1 litres per 100km. So you're looking at ~$5.6 per 100km for fuel tax. This tax is adding $2.5 tax per 100km for electric. Right now, EVs are absolutely creating an regressive tax situation with regards to fuel. Those who can afford to buy newer, efficient cars can usually save money on tax over those…

That sounds like a solution that wouldn't ever get traction in the US with the love of stupidly large trucks and SUVs.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#62

Post by dmurray » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:19 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #35

davidivadavid wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European, 13.1 l/100 km seems... insane. What's happening here?

Has to be including heavy vehicles? Australians still by V8’s but not that many of them can be...

It is including heavy vehicles, but also motorcycles. The average for "passenger vehicles" is still about 10.5 l/km. Just bigger cars I think.

https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-insurance/research/avera...

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#63

Post by stouset » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:19 PM UTC

bigbubba wrote: post #42

horsawlarway wrote: post #6

I'm not really sure there's a good answer here. Fuel tax is 43 cents a litre. Australian cars right now avg about 13.1 litres per 100km. So you're looking at ~$5.6 per 100km for fuel tax. This tax is adding $2.5 tax per 100km for electric. Right now, EVs are absolutely creating an regressive tax situation with regards to fuel. Those who can afford to buy newer, efficient cars can usually save money on tax over those…

Taxing milage directly seems to have worse distribution properties than taxing gas. Here is what I mean: Suppose I am driving from New York to Alaska; I fill up my car with gas then drive into Ontario. I have now paid New York a gas tax but I'm driving on Ontario roads; Ontario gets paid nothing for this wear and tear.. until I run out of gas inside Ontario. Then Ontario gets their cut. This continues all the way unt…

Taxing mileage (and gas) also has the unfortunate property of being generally regressive. Roads benefit us all, but those who drive the furthest are often the poorest who live far from city centers.

In my (admittedly uneducated) opinion, road taxes should be overwhelmingly be paid by commercial vehicles since they contribute much more to road damage, their costs will be passed on to consumers, and the largest consumers are the wealthy. Mileage might make the most sense for that type of tax, and I think wouldn’t unfairly burden the poor. Maybe multiplied by the value of the cargo?

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#64

Post by adrianN » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

xd wrote: post #56

mtgx wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trucks do...wait for it...1,400x more damage to roads than standard passenger vehicles do.

Probably because they transport 1,400x more economic goods?

No, because road damage is proportional to axle weight to the fourth power.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#65

Post by layoric » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

jpollock wrote: post #7

In many countries, fuel taxes don't go into general revenues, they are ring-fenced and allocated for road maintenance. Even if they aren't, a reduction in revenue must be offset. The fact that they aren't charged taxes for use of the roads was the incentive. This is removing it in recognition that electric vehicles are now enough of a percentage of the fleet to affect tax revenue. New Zealand does the same, with dies…

This approach makes sense, but with Australia, EV sales are not close to 2% and are still 0.6% [0], and they are still really expensive upfront to buy.

Also in Australia, the fuel tax isn’t isolated for use only for roads, it is a federal tax that can be (and has been), used for other more general expenses.

In a time of “money printer goes brrr” and tax cuts disproportionately benefiting the wealthy, nickel and diming things like EVs keeping their cost higher makes little sense. I like cleaner city air for everyone, reduced CO2 etc, adding this tax will make EV choice a lot harder as you’ll be hit with a tax larger than your fuel bill total, especially if you charge off your own solar and for people who buy a second hand EV just to drive around town. A 2.5c per km is equivalent to doubling the cost of a lot of EVs, example 2015 Nissan Leaf 24kWh does ~100km on a full charge of say 20 kWh, at 15c per kWh you are looking at $3 fuel and $2.5 tax. 15c is low but with combo of solar (which is very common in Australia) or off peak this is pretty reasonable. What isn’t reasonable is that level of tax for something that has more general benefits for trying to generate such a small total of revenue at such an early stage of sales. There are so many other ways this tax could be generated in relation to cars that would encourage uptake of these cars while still reducing impact on lower/middle income earners, I think this is a very poorly thought out tax.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/aug/19/electric...

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#66

Post by donaltroddyn » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #39

donaltroddyn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Odometers are reliable enough, especially as the basis for a tax. You'd certainly see an increase in average tyre size!

They're probably accurate to within less than 10%. How many kilometers would you have to drive to save a dollar from slightly bigger tyres?

I was being slightly facetious in referencing tyre size, although people regularly have to adjust speedo/odometers by 10% or more when fitting large tyres on off-roaders.

Odometers can have their values changed at will, at least in ICE vehicles, often for valid reasons.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#67

Post by bigbubba » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #54

bigbubba wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxing milage directly seems to have worse distribution properties than taxing gas. Here is what I mean: Suppose I am driving from New York to Alaska; I fill up my car with gas then drive into Ontario. I have now paid New York a gas tax but I'm driving on Ontario roads; Ontario gets paid nothing for this wear and tear.. until I run out of gas inside Ontario. Then Ontario gets their cut. This continues all the way unt…

You could tax electricity at public EV charging stations. That would have the same desirable distribution properties as the existing gas tax.

Yes, I think this is the best way to do it. It may also make sense to tax residential power to fund roads, since many electric car owners will primarily be charging at home. Perhaps this electricity tax could be limited to people who are registered as owning electric cars. That would follow the same principle of applying the tax where the fueling/charging is performed.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#68

Post by dmurray » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #54

bigbubba wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxing milage directly seems to have worse distribution properties than taxing gas. Here is what I mean: Suppose I am driving from New York to Alaska; I fill up my car with gas then drive into Ontario. I have now paid New York a gas tax but I'm driving on Ontario roads; Ontario gets paid nothing for this wear and tear.. until I run out of gas inside Ontario. Then Ontario gets their cut. This continues all the way unt…

You could tax electricity at public EV charging stations. That would have the same desirable distribution properties as the existing gas tax.

It's likely most electricity for EVs will be consumed at home, though.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#69

Post by xupybd » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

bigbubba wrote: post #42

horsawlarway wrote: post #6

I'm not really sure there's a good answer here. Fuel tax is 43 cents a litre. Australian cars right now avg about 13.1 litres per 100km. So you're looking at ~$5.6 per 100km for fuel tax. This tax is adding $2.5 tax per 100km for electric. Right now, EVs are absolutely creating an regressive tax situation with regards to fuel. Those who can afford to buy newer, efficient cars can usually save money on tax over those…

Taxing milage directly seems to have worse distribution properties than taxing gas. Here is what I mean: Suppose I am driving from New York to Alaska; I fill up my car with gas then drive into Ontario. I have now paid New York a gas tax but I'm driving on Ontario roads; Ontario gets paid nothing for this wear and tear.. until I run out of gas inside Ontario. Then Ontario gets their cut. This continues all the way unt…

Pay as you go roads?

RFID tag for your car with roads reading your entrance and exit. Then a bill at the end of the month from a single body that then divides the tax back to the area that maintains the various roads you used. High traffic roads get proportional funding. You could even have seamless integration with private roads. If someone thinks they can make money out of an expensive by pass the government doesn't want to build they can.

Re: Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car road tax

#70

Post by upofadown » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:22 PM UTC

>It points out the petrol excise goes into general revenue rather than road funding...

OK, but this is incomplete. We would have to know how much the government spends on roads. For all we know the government spends more than they get in excise tax.