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Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

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Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#81

Post by supernova87a »

ryandrake wrote: post #75
supernova87a wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be surprised, as a practical matter, that many people in the world are not happy when their prudent choices are invalidated by a change in the government policy in favor of others who took the opposite choice as you. And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so. People working and making material sacrifices over their lifetimes only to see those burdens lifted for others are not a small edge ca…

> many people in the world are not happy when their prudent choices are invalidated by a change in the government policy in favor of others who took the opposite choice as you. And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so. Sorry, but they are called selfish because they are selfish. And, they are part of the reason we can't make any changes for the common good anymore. We can't seem to politically make things ea…

Here, let's make this more concrete so we're not debating over intangibles.

How much of your salary are you willing to give for this student loan forgiveness program?

$10,000? every year?

Not that much? Why are you being so selfish?

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#82

Post by ruined »

supernova87a wrote: post #5

When everyone was praising the billionaire who paid for the student loans of that graduating class a few years ago (who by the way is under investigation for tax evasion), I raised the point that this might not be seen as fair by everyone and I was immediately criticized by some friends. I cautioned that it's fine for a private individual to do whatever he wants, but watch out if you apply this some day to the govern…

if we stop the trolley now, it would be unfair to everyone that has already been crushed

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#83

Post by defertoreptar »

linspace wrote: post #64
bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government’s money all comes from taxes. If the government pays out money to people that aren’t you, it’s as if you had paid them directly and skipped paying taxes. If you wouldn’t want to give someone free money then you similarly shouldn’t want your government to give them that money.

Not really true. The government adds coordinated action and scale in situations where individual action is ineffective. Also, there are a lot of issues about which I simply don't have enough knowledge to have an opinion.

Maybe, but in this case we're literally talking about moving tax money directly into people's student loan accounts. I'd say, "yes, really true."

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#84

Post by berberous »

Larrikin wrote: post #71
supernova87a wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, I didn't say that we should not help ever unless it benefits everyone. I'm saying that when you implicitly pick a group to help over others, you'd better be careful about the incentives and signals it gives on what you want to happen next time. As I said, it would be more reasonable to give everyone a credit, not forgive debt.

But why is it more reasonable to give a credit? The goal is to reduce the amount of people who are putting off major life decisions because they are deep in debt from society forcing them to get an expensive degree. The people who have gotten out from under that burden are no long bringing society down. I don't get a check from the unemployment office after the fact if they ever increase the amount of unemployment pe…

>> from society forcing them to get an expensive degree

I am actually sympathetic to the fact that social pressure or other structural dynamics may encourage people to make bad choices, but they were not “forced”.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#85

Post by thomastjeffery »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #74
thomastjeffery wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be great. Maybe they can abolish landlords while they are at it. Oh, are we meant to be afraid of these solutions?

Why not get rid of personal property. Lets start with you. > Oh, are we meant to be afraid of these solutions? Not afraid, but how about we spend a non-zero amount of brain power seeing if that is good or not rather than painting opponents as cowardly? Is asking to think too much to ask?

> Why not get rid of personal property.

Well, that's pretty intense. But as a thought experiment, I suppose we can go all the way down this slippery slope.

> Lets start with you.

Well no, that's not how it works. We start with literally everyone at the same time. That's what Communism means. The fact that you need to change it to make it look unappealing is telling.

Granted, I'm not advocating communism here. I'm just pointing out that landlords are an obvious edge case. Landlords provide no benefit, while reaping a huge reward, especially when you factor in generational wealth.

> Not afraid, but how about we spend a non-zero amount of brain power seeing if that is good or not rather than painting opponents as cowardly?

That's what I'm trying to do here. The comment I was replying to insinuated that we should spend a zero amount of brain power considering Socialist policy.

> Is asking to think too much to ask?

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#86

Post by ryandrake »

supernova87a wrote: post #81
ryandrake wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many people in the world are not happy when their prudent choices are invalidated by a change in the government policy in favor of others who took the opposite choice as you. And that they be called "selfish" for thinking so. Sorry, but they are called selfish because they are selfish. And, they are part of the reason we can't make any changes for the common good anymore. We can't seem to politically make things ea…

Here, let's make this more concrete so we're not debating over intangibles. How much of your salary are you willing to give for this student loan forgiveness program? $10,000? every year? Not that much? Why are you being so selfish?

$1.5 trillion is less than what was spent on the Iraq war, and just two years of US military spending. We can make it work without simplistically raising everyone's taxes by $1.5T/everyone. The hardest step is to change people's political priorities so that they actually include making more people better off.

Oh, and to answer your actual question, yes, I'd much rather have $300 of my tax bill every paycheck go towards the "making education free for everyone" fund rather than the "blowing up a kid hiding in a hole with an AK47" fund.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#87

Post by voisin »

defertoreptar wrote: post #79
voisin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on when you took your loan and what the cost of tuition was then, but this is really about reversing the insane inflation that only came about as a result of the loans in the first place.

What inflation are you referring to.

Inflation in the total cost of a post-secondary degree.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#88

Post by benjohnson »

RhysU wrote: post #42
RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

Student loans should be discharable in bankruptcy court. It's insane that they aren't already. Simple solution, anyone in financial trouble gets relief, and people who can pay their debt off should do so. (edit: phrasing)

Hold my beer while I go get in financial trouble.

Bingo... If student loans are forgiven, I’m signing up for aviation school just for the thrill of it.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#89

Post by thomastjeffery »

supernova87a wrote: post #69
thomastjeffery wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be great. Maybe they can abolish landlords while they are at it. Oh, are we meant to be afraid of these solutions?

Well now we can't pass up the opportunity to hear about this. How would that one work? The landlords bit?

Well, you see, landlords are a classic edge case of property rights and unregulated Capitalism.

Capitalism is praised as a motivator for people to contribute to society with the promise of fiscal returns. Landlords make zero contribution, while attaining huge returns.

Abolishing landlords would accomplish one of Marx's most significant goals without completely throwing out property rights and capitalism.

> How would that one work?

Well, like any implementation, that's up for discussion. The general idea is that we would remove the ability for landlords to charge rent. Landlords would have an explicit infringement on their property rights. They would no longer have the right to demand recurring payment from occupants of their properties. They would have restrictions of their ability to evict tenants.

Of course, the implementation is where this idea gets contentious. Are landlords allowed to evict tenants who destroy property? Do landlords even own property anymore, or is it explicitly given to tenants? What about multi-dwelling properties? Who owns the furnace in an apartment complex? Do we create a third-party authority? Can any of this be accomplished without full-fledged Communism?

Most of the complications lie in the change from status quo. It's pretty complicated to decide who owns property that is already owned by landlords, but it's pretty straightforward to make it illegal to enter new rental contracts.

I agree that simply throwing out the words "abolish landlords" trivializes a lot, but it's still an idea worth exploring. What we have now isn't inherently better. It's a pretty obvious failing. People are homeless while homes lie vacant. People are inheriting huge swaths of property, making wealth and power, then turning that power toward policy that benefits them. These are real problems, and they deserve attention.

Re: Cancel student-loan debt? That’s making the working class subsidize the elite

#90

Post by bwb »

treeman79 wrote: post #20
drewg123 wrote: post #9

I think the most reasonable thing to do would be to cancel student debts and to then make college affordable again. When I went to a NY State SUNY school in the late 80s / early 90s, it was heavily supported by the taxpayers of NY. My tuition was $675 a semester, or $1350/year and the fees were minimal. The NY minimum wage at the time was $3.35/hr. That meant that by working a minimum wage job for the summer, I could…

Change bankruptcy law so student debt is discharge. Don’t let government back loans. Lenders will only lend to people have a decent chance of paying it back. So no more nonsense degrees unless your rich. Colleges have grown fat on easy money. This will slim them up again

They could also just move all college loans to Fed interest rates of near 0%.
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