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NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

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Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#301

Would we expect them not to? "An important developed nation is picking a new fighter. Let's know nothing until it's over with." is hardly good stewardship of your own nation's trust and resources. It's the NSA's job to monitor who is friends with whom so policy makers can make policy. That's not to say the NSA should do anything they can. But it is their proper job to spy on non-Americans for America.

If you were Danish, and knowing your country is part of NATO, would you be pleased to know this?

I'm Danish... On the one hand none of this surprises me.

On the other hand, I wish the US would trust our politicians a bit more. There is no way we could have bought anything other than the F35, why even bother spying? :)

At the end of the day I hope we'll never use the air planes -- so what does it matter if they can't fly :D

Seriously, though... It might be best if I trust that the politicians we've elected makes reasonable deals. When it comes to geo politics they might know better than me.

At the end of the day, I kind of trust the US more than anyone else, regardless.

(Not saying I don't wish the world was different, just that in practice all of this hopefully doesn't matter much)

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#302
post #298
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is that EU countries will not stand up to the US, because they are afraid of losing American protection. However, in case of Germany you linked evidence that goes directly against your argument: >German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Tuesday called for creating a European Union army, stressing that Europeans can no longer merely rely on the U.S. for their security. Given the context of the thread, this quo…

> The last country to invade and occupy Denmark was Germany, not Russia. Technically, Russia did occupy the Danish Island of Bornholm following the German occupation. The gave it up in 1946, but still it spent almost a year under soviet occupation. On topic, I think we just like Americans and buying planes from the US was more or less a forgone conclusion :) Besides nobody has ever been fired for buying the most adva…

Hah, that's true about Bornholm. Now that you mention it, I feel like I've read about it recently, somewhere. Thanks for reminding me.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#303
post #177
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have this completely backwards. Tanks are deathtraps in cities. Attackers trap them with obstacles and then attack with RPGs. See the footage on YouTube in Chechnya or Syria. In the open battlefield as in Iraq 1 (especially) and 2 they were very effective although of course airpower is the key factor.

Modern Tanks have a high resistance against RPG's, you can read for yourself. https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/Primer-on-Urban-Op... >In the open battlefield as in Iraq 1 (especially) and 2 they were very effective That was artillery and aircraft's, mostly NOT Tank VS Tank.

> Modern Tanks have a high resistance against RPG's, you can read for yourself.

> https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/Primer-on-Urban-Op...

To quote from this book, about regarding how badly they faired in Chechnya (as mentioned above):

> High casualties, massive collateral damage, and heavy losses in vehicles and equipment all point to the apparent folly of using tanks in the urban fight. This chapter will discuss the 1995 battle for Grozny and examine why the Russian armor did not achieve the desired results.

So... the argument is that "Russians don't know how to use tanks". I don't find this argument particularly persuasive.

It's true that up-armourmed Abrams in Fallujah proved effective against RPG-7s (as mentioned in your link). But the RPG-29 was used in Syria successfully against them, and (more often) by Hezbollah against the Merkava tanks.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/russia-rpg-threat-to-mode...

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#304
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct regarding SIGINT, that allies don't mind being spied upon. What they do mind is when they themselves are being spied upon. Like Merkel's phone being tapped. Or the US recruiting on ground assets in Saudi Arabia.

> What they do mind is when they themselves are being spied upon That's what SIGINT is. > Like Merkel's phone being tapped. Which is an example of SIGINT. And it was leaked which is why it became an issue. World leader's are always surveilled. There's a certain level of aggression you use against acknowledged enemies that would be awkward if exposed against allies, that is not to say it doesn't still happen.

Oh, my bad at that, got a brain fart I suppose. Sweeped surveillance (which is usually SIGINT) is not minded, and often the backbone of programmes such as Five Eyes relies on that. Targeted surveillance (SIGINT cases that I mentioned) and espionage (mostly HUMINT) is frowned upon. HUMINT is especially frowned upon since it means you're actively investing in recruiting citizens against their government, and the intel is usually much more valuable and more expensive to garner. HUMINT Intel isn't practiced between staunch allies either, but maybe between uneasy allies and enemies.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you need a strong army to protect your country so that your neighbors don't become hungry for what you have. However I resent the dumb propaganda that is served to us and has no basis in reality.

> I resent the dumb propaganda that is served to us and has no basis in reality I suggest ignoring "geopolitics", and considering to what extent your input matters even in local political matters. If you find that such impact is minimal locally, then from a political consideration, it is a waste of your time to spend energy on "Russian threat" or any other geopolitical narrative (many dating to 19th century.) You sho…

Geopolitics matter even for simple people like me: first it's always better to not live in the matrix of lies of someone else and secondly it can help understand what's happening or what is going to happen.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#306
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it have the territory almost 23% of the size of the USA to defend (greenland is part of denmark for defence purposes).

It doesn't. It comes down to this - Denmark completely rely on the international community, particularly the EU and US for defense. If that fails, and let's say hypothetically , Germans attacked, what can Denmark do? Surrender in 4 hours is the preferred play.

I dont understand your point?

That denmark should not have a defence? I think thats wrong, even if it cant resist the enemies on its own. Its a lot easier to get your allies to help you while you are figthing to defend yourself instead of asking your allies to reconquer your contry.

I take your 4 hour surrender snark, but saying its preferred is properly too much for a one time occurence.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

Does it? France and the UK started the Libya conflict but had to call in the US via NATO for help.

"Had to call in the US" -> "the US wanted its cut as top dog, and invited itself"

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still misrepresenting international law, though. It's not as ephemeral as your portray it, most of it is based on existing treaties, declarations, and agreements, and the rest of it is also not arbitrary but rather based on convention and customary procedure among states. There is a reason why countries like the US and Russia go at great length in arguing that what they do is not violating international law in…

> most of it is based on Any specific existing treaty that forgives or wipes away a war crime? Or many. Despite the tens of thousands (conservatively) of dead civilians resulting from direct US military action, the US has not even been accused of a single instance of a war crime. Why do you think that is? Well I'll tell you, as someone who's been elbow deep into this for quite a few years of my life: international la…

There is no substantial disagreement between us, once I start to ignore some of your unnecessarily snippy and needlessly condescending remarks. Lack of enforcement of international law is due to lack of ratified treaties for such an enforcement. There is a reason why the US refuses to ratify the treaty for the International Court of Justice. So far, attempts to get better enforcement mechanisms were partly successful, but not successful when members of the UN Security Council are concerned. The problem is that allied powers decided to give the UN security council members veto rights. Any change would have to start there - a larger council and abandoning veto rights. In the current political situation that will not happen, but maybe in the future it will.

However, you're still under a false impression. You're just looking at a few global superpowers and former superpowers such as Russia, China, and the US. However, the UN has 193 member states and there are countless bilateral treaties that entangle countries in a positive way.

> There is some give and take but for some it's literally what they do for a living.

That's not true, as I've said, your view of international relations is unrealistic. You're thinking way too much in black and white terms. As I've mentioned earlier, even the countries who occasionally break international law normally adhere to it and consult their experts about it and try to avoid breaking it. Your remark is especially ironic in the context of a thread about Denmark. There are more countries than the US, China, and Russia. Most of these countries work quite well with each other on the basis of international law. For every case that you believe demonstrates arbitrary power abuse, you can find another case in which international treaties, conflict resolution mechanisms by UN, and diplomatic channels have worked.

You're generalizing from very few hand-picked nations, which are known to have particular geostrategical goals that other countries do not have. Denmark is not waging illegal wars or annexing regions of other countries, for instance. Most countries don't do these kind of things.

> That was exactly my point, that there are no good or bad, no moral and immoral/amoral countries. They do what they need to do to stay on top of the pile.

You did not understand this point. I'm saying that countries cannot be moral actors because they are not uniform entities. Countries are not actors at all. If at all, you can talk about particular governments this way, but these change all the time. Or, you could say that certain geostrategical goals seem to influence a government's actions, but that involve a lot of interpretation and background knowledge. You need to assign moral properties to decision makers, or perhaps governments. So it only appears as if we agree on this point.

Of course, there are immoral actions of governments, though. Russia's annexation of the Crimea is a prime example of one. So are US drone strikes, Guantanamo, and the false pretenses for the 2nd Golf War.

If your suggestion is that governments cannot be held accountable for their actions, then I have to say I'm baffled and have no idea what made you adopt this outlandish view. They are being held accountable all the time, as well as individual members of governments if it is clear they are responsible for a certain decision.

Sometimes people use the country name as a shortcut and if it's clear that they mean the governments and other institutions during a certain time period, then that's alright. But talking about countries in general as if they were uniform actors is always nonsense.

> Don't ignore something because you can't parse it. It's clearly the best way to form an uninformed opinion and then state it firmly, assuming you have an iron clad case.

You seem to be talking about yourself here. Psychologists call this projection. As I've said, there does not seem to be any substantial disagreement between us - now that you've changed your mind about international law, or at least chose to change the subject to a more general topic. Yes, a few countries such as the US and Russia sometimes break international law, presumably because they think they can afford it in light of too tame opposition. If that's your big geopolitical insight, so be it.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark is not France and Denmark has no guarantee that France would step in to stop a Russian invasion.

Why on Earth would Russia invade Denmark?

Why would Russia go to war with Denmark, which controls access to the Baltic Sea, control of which has been a major priority for Russian foreign policy for the past 300 years?

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it? France and the UK started the Libya conflict but had to call in the US via NATO for help.

"Had to call in the US" -> "the US wanted its cut as top dog, and invited itself"

Sarkozy and Cameron publicly pushing Clinton and Obama to join in on enforcement for weeks would indicate something else, given the marked policy difference between how that was handled and Syria. Libya is not really something America has a strategic interest in.
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