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My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

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Re: My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

#441

Post by ricardobeat »

nostrademons wrote: post #435
ricardobeat wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a little exercise: imagine yourself being a drug dealer, and read your own comment out loud. It rings perfectly, and it is no coincidence, proportions aside. You cannot absolve yourself from responsibility just because your target audience 'had a choice'.

FWIW I think drugs should be legal too (though I won't go near them myself), and the rest of the country is gradually coming around to that realization.

The analogy is for opioids, cocaine etc which are highly destructive, not recreational/medicinal drugs.

Re: My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

#442

Post by nostrademons »

ricardobeat wrote: post #441
nostrademons wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I think drugs should be legal too (though I won't go near them myself), and the rest of the country is gradually coming around to that realization.

The analogy is for opioids, cocaine etc which are highly destructive, not recreational/medicinal drugs.

I think most of America would put TV to the "less harmful" side of marijuana use rather than comparing it to cocaine or opioids.

Re: My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

#443

Post by freehunter »

user2834 wrote: post #399
freehunter wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment exercising various mental gymnastics to find nefarious causes for a teenager's changing personality... Every generation of parents thinks their kid is the smartest and then they become teenagers and suddenly they're moody and want to do things that their parents don't approve of. That's the basic fact underlying this. Any argument you make about kids changing when they become teenagers needs to have this…

Are fruits and vegetables designed to be addictive? Are hobbies like playing the piano or running designed to be addictive? I think you're too expansive in your use of "everything".

Funny enough yes, fruits and vegetables were designed to be addictive. The fruits we have today are the result of genetic modifications that make them sweeter, so sweet in fact that zoos have had to stop feeding modern fruits to their animals because it was causing the animals to gain too much weight [1]. Vegetables can be the same way. Look at corn before humans ate it versus what it looks like today [2]. Humans specifically designed fruits and vegetables to have more sugar so they were tastier to eat. And this was thousands of years ago, so it's not even a new creation.

I don't think running counts as something humans designed but the hobby of running absolutely is designed to be addictive and maximize user engagement. Is there any reason for running shoes to be bright red or lime green or neon orange? Most normal shoes aren't, so why are running shoes? Because brightly colored running shoes sell better than more neutral colors [3]. Likewise, Strava is a very popular running app. Why is it more popular than many competitors? Because it compares your results to someone else's results and challenges you to do that run again, but faster so you can beat this other person's time. That's pretty addictive and of course it was specifically designed that way. There are even people who consider themselves Strava addicts [4].

You're right that everything is too expansive, but everything humans have designed, we've designed to be as addictive as possible (or at least to increase user engagement and retention). Yes, even the piano... the instrument was originally a pipe organ operated by buttons and levers. That's difficult to play and difficult to use in your home so we designed a smaller version called the clavichord but it was too difficult to hear in stage performances (and performing in front of a live audience is... addictive and people want to keep doing it) so along came the harpsichord which was later refined into the piano because the piano is easier to play than a lever-operated pipe organ and if no one cared about user engagement and retention, why bother making a piano that's easier to play?

[1] https://weather.com/news/news/2018-10-03-fruit-so-sweet-zoo-...

[2] https://www.sciencealert.com/fruits-vegetables-before-domest...

[3] https://www.racked.com/2018/1/9/16849572/running-shoes-so-ug...

[4] https://triathlonmagazine.ca/gear/am-i-becoming-too-addicted...

Re: My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

#444

Post by darkerside »

analog31 wrote: post #430
darkerside wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning to play Minecraft seems like a meaningful activity. It's essentially digital Legos, not to different perhaps from the way you compose music on your digital canvas. Is there something else you would rather your kids be doing?

Go outside. Explore the neighborhood. Ride your bike. Read a book. Practice your cello. Tinker in the basement. I may be old fashioned, but Minecraft strikes me as faux-creative. It's not something you get "better" at. That's just my reaction, having watched it done. It puts you in a state of flow without actually flowing anywhere.

My question was intended as a direct question to parent poster. If that's what you want your kids to be doing, then that's what you should be doing. Your kid wants to be just like you. They watch everything you do, and they will find their own way to do what they think you are doing.

So, want your kids to go outside? Go outside. Want them to read? Read. Want them to practice cello? Practice cello.

Want them to learn how to build digital creative? Let them see you building your own digital creations.

Re: My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

#445

Post by ElijahLynn »

ElijahLynn wrote: post #254

This is the reason we send our children to a Waldorf school. Most of the parents don't buy their kids phones or let them have unfettered, unsupervised access to the internet and devices. This means our kids are not desperate to fit in with the other kids. Our kids are very creative as a result and are constantly doing things and playing and have good social skills.

I am a high-school dropout myself and am mostly self-taught. I started a locksmith business in the Denver metro area when I was 21 and taught myself how to pick locks, open vehicles and service locks on homes, automobiles and businesses and a ton of other things as well. I did use books and videos to learn. I switched to software engineering when I was 30 and did the same thing.

I don't think learning specific material in school is really that important but more so the learning how to learn combined with "creativity". We have far too many people in this world who are good at following instructions but what we really need in my opinion is people who are creative and can solve tough problems, not follow instructions.

Learning things along the way is easy if there is a solid creative base and persistence.

I suppose there can be some highly specialized areas where you need to be in school the whole way and get certifications etc (e.g. surgeon, law).

But in practicality, I want to have creative children who grow up to be multi-talented and have confidence that they can learn whatever they need to learn to solve problems of the modern world. This is why we send them to a Waldorf school.

Re: My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

#446

Post by betwixthewires »

2020-3030 wrote: post #417
betwixthewires wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought about schooling quite a lot, and I've come to the conclusion that a kid maybe needs 5 years of full time schooling to become proficient in reading, mathematics, civics and their government structure, and a high school level understanding of sciences. The rest of it is just government funded daycare. And that's what school is supposed to be for, right? To make a literate population capable of measuring an…

Would you want to elaborate about the calculations/estimates and share any top readings you've found? In many cases, the purpose of education depends on socioeconomic class or what you, your parents, and/or your social groups decide to take for yourselves. Nearly everybody promotes widespread basic literacy for social cohesion and basic employment functionality, but higher skills are more of a battle ground. Many peo…

The purpose of education as sold in the early days of national education was to create a literate and competent citizenry. The criteria I outlined above accomplishes that.

As far as socioeconomic class, overproduction of elites and critical thinking skills, I think it is plainly obvious that education systems do not help. I did not learn critical thinking in school, I learned it in life. In fact, what I'm doing right now is critically thinking about the role and effectiveness of rigorous education. They don't do that in rigorous education.

Overproduction of elites cannot happen through rigorous and standard education, it underproduces capable people. I should note that I do not think you can overproduce elites, I want everyone to be one.

I'm not saying that a person doesn't need an education. What I'm saying is that a child doesn't need 13 years of full time schooling and I'm saying that a classroom is not an effective place to learn most things we need to learn.

Re: My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

#447

Post by betwixthewires »

cbozeman wrote: post #395
betwixthewires wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought about schooling quite a lot, and I've come to the conclusion that a kid maybe needs 5 years of full time schooling to become proficient in reading, mathematics, civics and their government structure, and a high school level understanding of sciences. The rest of it is just government funded daycare. And that's what school is supposed to be for, right? To make a literate population capable of measuring an…

It takes 13 years because people who make a lot of money don't want to bankroll the daycare of other people's children. Your society might work in the 23rd century with Jean-Luc Picard. It doesn't work in the 21st century with Tim Cook and the quarterly report.

This is low effort and a cheap attack on rich people.

Why do we need the money of someone else to educate our children? Why do we go to work to pay the taxes that keep our kids in what amounts to a prison? Maybe part of how you get that 23rd century society is by stopping with this long and drawn out compulsory education charade. Teach people what they have to know to function in an advanced society, let them find their own interests and learn the things they need to learn to do the things they want. What about our current society precludes that from working? Tim Cook's existence?

Re: My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

#448

Post by jelliclesfarm »

betwixthewires wrote: post #354
sequoia wrote: post #87

Buried lede: > My daughter doesn’t return home from school until 6:30 pm and still has to eat, bathe, and get ready for bed. Perhaps it is not just the iPhone, but school taking up 100% of her time, energy, and attention that is preventing her from pursuing creative interests? As a homeschooling parent whose kids have been in school at times, I see this first hand. School is exhausting . Between rising unnaturally ea…

I've thought about schooling quite a lot, and I've come to the conclusion that a kid maybe needs 5 years of full time schooling to become proficient in reading, mathematics, civics and their government structure, and a high school level understanding of sciences. The rest of it is just government funded daycare. And that's what school is supposed to be for, right? To make a literate population capable of measuring an…

I agree. But my model is slightly different. I feel it’s better to have children of multiple ages together in three schooling stages for multiple years.

Example: grade 1-5 can have children of that age range in that section for five years. Ditto for grade 6-9 etc. this way, children can learn at their own pace and time. And from their peers. Gives them more flexibility.

Schools should be for social education too and learning how to become adults. Parents should be more involved in forming peer groups rather than schools.

School buildings should be the only tax payers funded capital expense. And a skeleton crew of teachers with something like khan academy. Schools are where they can congregate for group studies or games or swimming pools or sports or music rooms or robotics meetups or shop work or fill in the blank etc.

Parents should raise children and make decisions. Not school unions. Also..why should those without kids in school pay taxes for everyone and sundry forever? There should be a base minimum towards public contribution for public education(the capital cost of neighborhood school buildings etc), but cost of raising and educating children should be shared amongst those whose children are studying. This will also help people make financially responsibly decisions as well location preferences when they want to grow and raise a family.

I am appalled that the govt..at least in the USA..has the responsibility of child care, child rearing and the other education. What are the parents doing? Parenting doesn’t end with just birthing your progeny.

Re: My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

#449

Post by jelliclesfarm »

2020-3030 wrote: post #417
betwixthewires wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought about schooling quite a lot, and I've come to the conclusion that a kid maybe needs 5 years of full time schooling to become proficient in reading, mathematics, civics and their government structure, and a high school level understanding of sciences. The rest of it is just government funded daycare. And that's what school is supposed to be for, right? To make a literate population capable of measuring an…

Would you want to elaborate about the calculations/estimates and share any top readings you've found? In many cases, the purpose of education depends on socioeconomic class or what you, your parents, and/or your social groups decide to take for yourselves. Nearly everybody promotes widespread basic literacy for social cohesion and basic employment functionality, but higher skills are more of a battle ground. Many peo…

Educational funding should be decoupled from property taxes which is really a function of speculation.

When we fund schools with property taxes as we do in the USA, then we make education a speculative activity. Disastrous outcome guaranteed.

Re: My daughter was a creative genius, and then we bought her an iPhone

#450

Post by ElijahLynn »

xg15 wrote: post #242

This thread exercising various mental gymnastics to find other causes for her behavior honestly reminds me of a bunch of climate change deniers arguing why human activity has nothing to do with atmospheric heating. Being cautious with assuming causations is usually a good idea - but it falls flat when we know the causal chains that are at work. In the case of climate change, we know for a fact that humanity is releas…

I too was shocked to see so much defending the state of this child so thank you for your comment!

So much confirmation bias at work here.

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