Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

thedrive.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 326 posts

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#251

Post by koheripbal »

jmnicolas wrote: post #100
ARandomerDude wrote: post #26

Would we expect them not to? "An important developed nation is picking a new fighter. Let's know nothing until it's over with." is hardly good stewardship of your own nation's trust and resources. It's the NSA's job to monitor who is friends with whom so policy makers can make policy. That's not to say the NSA should do anything they can. But it is their proper job to spy on non-Americans for America.

The problem isn't the spying, it's their duty after all. The problem is the suspected strong arming that may or may not have occurred behind the scenes. I remember a Dutch politician that was vehemently opposed to the F35 that died in mysterious circumstances. I would normally put this on coincidences but when the stakes are that high I won't go for Ockham razor first.

Do you have any source for that with any evidence?

It seems like a huge overreaction to murder a single vocally opposed politician just over a aircraft fighter deal - even if he was a critical decision maker (which I'm going to guess he wasn't).

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#252

Post by koheripbal »

jeroenhd wrote: post #243

I can't say I'm surprised they spied on their allies, it's a US spy agency after all. It does underline the fact that countries within the EU should move away from US deals for industries their member states compete in. The US simply cannot be trusted.

Everyone spies on everyone. That's how spying works. You spy on your allies because no nation is 100% with you or against you.

In each nation there are elements of the enemy in them - some that your allied head of state may not even be aware of.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#253

Post by posix_me_less »

cturner wrote: post #182
RobertoG wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations [..]" This is a list of military spending by country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_... If you count only France and Germany they spend already more than Russia. The European Union together spend more money in defense that any other country in the world except the USA (and around the same that China). So, what's the reason…

Among reasons for the American spend (1) it helps to support the nuclear non-proliferation cause, and has historically been used to dissuade Australia and Japan and South Korea and West Germany from creating their own nuclear weapons programs; (2) because the US has historically guaranteed northern Europe against a USSR tank invasion, though this may no longer be relevant; (3) the US is security guarantor for much of…

Europe maybe freeloading, but can you really blame them? Everybody knows they can get away with that and stay in NATO. Heck, look at what Turkey is doing and they are still in NATO. U.S. wants to preserve NATO the most, almost at any cost. Other countries know this and are more lukewarm to NATO and these things are to their advantage when deciding how much they really have to spend.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#254

Post by nix23 »

oblio wrote: post #240
nix23 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your info is out of date by a decade or more, I think. The German economy is the fourth-largest in the world and accounted for one quarter (24.7%) of the European Union’s GDP in 2019. The second biggest in the EU (now France) is one third smaller. 3,449.050 (Germany) 2,425.708 (France) https://www.trade.gov/knowledge-product/germany-market-overv... >So, Germany is 4% of the world GDP in nominal terms and 3.4% in PPP…

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/D...

Is it intended that you took a statistic from 2017 with the UK (second biggest) still in it?

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#255

Post by oblio »

nix23 wrote: post #254
oblio wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/D...

Is it intended that you took a statistic from 2017 with the UK (second biggest) still in it?

Nope, I linked the wrong thing. It still doesn't invalidate my other numbers. Germany is at best 25% of the EU economy and going down. Not "more than a third" (33%) as you claimed.

In any case, fear of Germany is overblown in 2020. I'd definitely want a EU army with a major German contribution. Don't be a general fighting the previous war ;-)

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#256

Post by themihai »

koheripbal wrote: post #248
themihai wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Russia is not USSR But it wants the Soviet Union back. >> and is not a threat to anyone Ukraine would not agree with that. Russia took Crimea and is supporting a civil war in eastern Ukraine. This may not be much for you but >> except immediate neighbors Yeah except the immediate neighbours and then the neighbours of the neighbours. Think of the Soviet Union era... Speaking of neighbours Denmark, Sweden, Lithuania…

This is an important thing to note about Europe - they don't really care about the security of other European nations. There's no sense of unity. If there were, they would collectively take a much much harder stance with Russia. This is why Eastern Europe is so much more pro-USA than Western Europe.

yeah it's still everyone for themselves. "Take back control" and "sovereignty" seems to win the more points than "solidarity" or "unity" in the political discourse of many EU countries.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#257

Post by elmo2you »

thefounder wrote: post #232
buran77 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that people misunderstand "international law" and interpret it as something similar to the more familiar national law. It's not. Why do you think the US can bomb a hospital or school, civilians be damned? That's a war crime but the justification "but terrorists" or "but democracy" wipes it away. How many war crimes do you think were committed in the Middle East and how many were condemned by that "inte…

Russia's old whinning: U.S is doing bad things (i.e in middle east) so we want to do bad things without sanctions as well...why the world gives us this "unfair" treatment?

Mark those words carefully, because you are likely going to regret them.

To a degree it's understandable that those who are constantly bombarded by their own relentless propaganda fail to see that they are indeed the bad guys. But this machinery that has so many so thorough brainwashed, has no intention of stopping. Also, it will have to get increasingly more criminal to sustain itself.

As so many of these systems before it, it will eventually turn on itself (it is already doing that, big time) and eventually destroy itself from the inside out. Only the strongest believers will be able to hold on to their faith in being the good guys. Others will wonder: "Why didn't we see it (coming)", ignorant of how many outsiders did already see it coming for a long time. Either way, a lot of people will have a similarly painful realization as the Germans had after WW2.

Don't take my word for it. You will see.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#258

Post by elmo2you »

quonn wrote: post #215
elmo2you wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case you didn't get that memo: the shit in the Ukraine didn't start with Russian involvement. It started with very active meddling, spending copious amounts of money, into the internal politics of the country. It should also be noted that much of that money went to ultra-right-wing militant organizations, who have zero respect for democracy or freedom. Essentially, the USA bought itself a (fascist) private army to…

Alaska is part of the US. Ukraine is not part of Russia. Everything else in your comment is also factually wrong or even a deliberate lie just like the ones you spread in your other replies here.

If only you could see the irony in your response. I guess that you have to be oblivious to it. But thank for providing a little piece of entertainment for me today.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#259

Post by dirtyid »

cturner wrote: post #221
RobertoG wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>" it helps to support the nuclear non-proliferation cause [..]" The non-proliferation cause it's another way of saying "we are the only one that should have nuclear capability". It doesn't look like to me that the USA is interested in a world without nuclear weapons (1), only in a world where the others don't have nuclear weapons. >>"If Europe is not freeloading, why was there so much negative reaction by European…

> only in a world where the others don't > have nuclear weapons It's a world where only Russia, (mainland) China, the US, France and the UK have nuclear weapons, in pursuit of a strategic balance. > If the problem is freeloading and defense, instead > of "business", why being against spending the money > in European military industry? Yeah, it doesn't surprise me to hear the pentagon whinge about people spending mone…

Lots of F35 teething issues affecting procurement decision 10 years ago. People unironically comparing F35 with Gripen. It's a great piece of kit worth locking in now. But last few years of US commitment uncertainty meant countries are now refocusing on indigenous defense industries, military goals are important now. Every previous billion that goes into F35 from foreign purchases improves F35 competitiveness while depriving competitors and foreign indigenous efforts, which was fine if US is dependable, i.e. Japan complained about how little US provided tech transfers and cooperation in the joint F2 program. I imagine it's in US interest to kill these upstart efforts or SAAB and Dessault when it comes to European procurement hence need for espionage. EU market size + existing industrial base could be a viable competitor to US MIC.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#260

Post by f1refly »

Shacklz wrote: post #193
Ntrails wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure precisely when we decided that intelligence gathering wasn't a part of all diplomatic relations? I expect my government to be spying on everyone to some degree or other, friend or foe. I have to assume the same is therefore being done to us. The US simply has more money and more resources allocated to doing so.

That just seems so... wrong. Why can't we just talk and discuss with each other like normal human beings? Why do we have to result to all this deceiving, tricking, spying each other? Why can't we just act... nice? Guess I'm just too naive for this world.

Because we're not talking about human beings. We're talking about huge, huge collectives of humans that are impossible to trust or predict. Think of states like you do of corproations: You wouldn't trust a corporation to do "the right thing" or "act nice", wouldn't you? Now image the corporation has nukes and tanks and lives next to your back door. We have a saying: "Trust is nice, surveillance is better" (which is used in different context but applies very nicely for this situation).
Post reply on HN