Live data from Hacker News

Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

reuters.com

341–350 of 352 posts

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you can't do them storming straight out of the gates. It just doesn't work like that. But sure, you can do them perfectly. How? - You provide incentives for attractive alternatives. - You invest in those alternatives and you invest in contextual drivers that make the transition more appealing. For instance, you provide an integrated plans for urban planning that cover different concerns. - You emphasize the…

People used to eat little meat, not because of a "traditional" or "localized" way of living but because they were too poor to afford it. As soon as they got richer they could do what they dreamed of. It's like cars, really. People used to walk . Not because it was nice and healthy but because they had no choice. Then bikes and public transport werean improvement, but really people do prefer the comfort and freedom of…

> they were too poor

Beware of value attribution and hindsight bias.

First, historic cuisines and diets evolved throughout history, and differed greatly depending by geographic location. Beware of generalizing particular historic contexts. You can't reliably extrapolate the dietary patterns of European serfs - as explained by their particular socio-economic context - and apply that the Mayan culture during the Classic period (same time frame 200-900 AD).

Second, the "they were too poor" argument only carries meaning in concrete socio-economic contexts. Even then, do note that the modern liberal conceptual framework of poor and rich didn't exist in earlier times. This even holds up today. It's tenuous claim to assume that, for instance, native cultures perceive themselves as "poor". If they do see themselves as "poor" today, that's always in reference to the dominant modern economic model based on western liberal enlightenment values and principles which has impacted their culture as an external factor.

> People used to walk. Not because it was nice and healthy but because they had no choice.

They didn't have a choice, but that doesn't say anything about how people perceived relying on muscle power across history, culture and geographical location.

Just 20 years ago, nobody considered the absence of social media and smartphones as a fundamental lacking in life. That's totally different today. For a short while, it was a choice, today, access to digital technology is a hard requirement in order to be able to participate in modern industrialized society. This is an example of how a feedback loop was created between availability and demand creating an artificial need. The same is true for most modern conveniences.

I'm deeply happy that I don't have to live a relatively short life working land, foraging or hunting game. But at the same time, I'm very much aware that's a hindsight bias and I'm very much aware that most modern conveniences aren't a prerequisite for the survival of humanity. As it stands, many of those modern conveniences have contributed to the existential threat which is Climate Change.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#342
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you don't have to charge the car from your house, just as you don't need to have your own personal petrol pump. So rather than being utterly ridiculous, it just requires a different mindset and acceptance that many more charging points will be available in the next ten years than there are currently.

Apples and oranges really - the difference in time at pump vs time charging is orders of magnitude. In order for this to work you'd need vast numbers of charging points and the entire electrical grid to be upgraded. This is not something the govt or commentators appear to mention very often. It'd truly be one of the biggest infrastructure projects the UK has ever seen and likely run into the £100's of bns. The disrup…

I don't own an electric car although I do have space for charging. My office is two miles from home so I could easily manage a week on one charge so a slight inconvenience measured against the 'convenience' of a petrol station would be no big deal for me.

I already despise having to fill up with petrol and always delay it until the last minute so that would be an added incentive for me.

Also, could not public car parks, workplaces, supermarkets, etc be used as public charging points?

In reality, we're talking about no new petrol/diesel cars in 9 years which means second-hand cars will be available for at least 10 years after that. It isn't as if you're being asked to make changes overnight?

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "industrial heat, and residential heating " For decades Russia has used distruct heating using waste heat from nuclear powerplants, its the chealest heatsource known to man. More modern approach is probably hydrogen and heat pumps, but either works. Range anxiety is a brain bug for folks that have never driven electric.

Yeah right, and those are simply older folks. Most of them will never switch. Those who will be only buying their first car in 2030 will probably buy electric, sure, but it will be another 20 years before these people will become the majority of buyers. These people are in the middle school now.

Your belief that older people won't buy electric is completely baseless and untrue.

I'm almost fifty and looking for buying an electric car. My parents just bought a plug in hybrid, but would have bought a fully electric if any suitable was available to a reasonable price.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#344
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is improving our energy supply so it's cheaper and cleaner going to harm the economy? Pretty sure there's a lot of jobs creating new power sources, and once everyone has cheap power they'll have more money left for the economy. The cost to fix global warming only gets greater each year. China buys more electric cars than all other countries.

If it's going to be cheaper, why does it need government support? Won't industry just do it to be more competitive on its own? Or perhaps there's some kind of first mover/network effect/chicken and egg problem that the free market can't surmount on its own?

Most things have government support, cars have roads, oil has militaries, and everyone who pollutes gets to do it for almost free with government support of not making it illegal.

But mostly it's long term vs short term.

I'd just make pollution illegal unless you paid to clean it up

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#345
post #280
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit is a direct result of global warming. Wars caused by drought, cause migration, cause racism.

Interesting theory. Which wars caused by drought?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war#Drought

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Crisis_(2011%E2%80%93pr...

But in general wars are about access to resources, food and water fundamentally

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#346
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But on the other hand, this IS indeed a super drastic action and we can't expect any nation on Earth apart from possibly, a few city-states like Singapore, to do as much in the same time frame. Petrol cars will be mainstay of transportation for about 40-50 years and will dominate new car sales for at least 20-30 years depending on the country. Anything but classic petrol and diesel cars will still hold tiny market sh…

You are way off. It took about 15 years to go from cities dominated by horse carriages to them being dominated by cars. It took longer in agriculture and rural areas. But the shift to electrical vehicles is trivial in comparison. Technically and economically we could easily prohibit new fossil fuelled cars by 2025. Sun and wind power is already much cheaper to install than coal powered plants, and once sun and wind p…

It happened because Ford T cost 4x cheaper per mile than a horse-drawn carriage, in a city (less difference in the countryside). It was a no-brainer to switch. When your horse died, it would be stupid to buy another when you had an option to buy a Model T.

Same can't be said about electric cars. So far, it's almost at the contrary.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People used to eat little meat, not because of a "traditional" or "localized" way of living but because they were too poor to afford it. As soon as they got richer they could do what they dreamed of. It's like cars, really. People used to walk . Not because it was nice and healthy but because they had no choice. Then bikes and public transport werean improvement, but really people do prefer the comfort and freedom of…

> they were too poor Beware of value attribution and hindsight bias. First, historic cuisines and diets evolved throughout history, and differed greatly depending by geographic location. Beware of generalizing particular historic contexts. You can't reliably extrapolate the dietary patterns of European serfs - as explained by their particular socio-economic context - and apply that the Mayan culture during the Classi…

> Beware of value attribution and hindsight bias.

It's not. It's a general observation that holds true in many place, certainly Europe (and thus the West in general) and, say, China. The amount of meat eaten was constrained by the value of animals and most people simply could not afford to eat more meat than they did.

Likewise for cars. It seems to be an ideological take to claim that people do not prefer comfort and ease of transport...

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#348
post #147
post #98

At least this is only banning new cars at the moment. But electric cars don't have a guaranteed real-world range of over 350 miles, the same as a tank of fuel, cost the same as petrol models, and charge as quickly as you can fill it with petrol. If the latter was solved petrol stations could be converted to charging points in cities, reducing the need for on-street charging points. And the charging requirements for a…

A few counterpoints. You don't need 350 miles of range, especially in England, which is 200 miles coast-to-coast. Average yearly mileage in UK is 9.2 k miles, which is 766 miles per month which is 2.1 full charges at 350 miles. Current estimates are that electric cars will achieve cost parity with ICE cars by 2025. Possibly much sooner given than Tesla is planning $25k car in 2022. Model 3's Total Cost of Ownership i…

> You don't need 350 miles of range

I drive south-coast to Northumberland, weekly. I don't want to spend 30 minutes plus waiting for the car to charge 2 or 3 times on during the journey, assuming there's even a free charger. Using an electric vehicle, with the current range, would make my 365(!) mile journey about 2 hours longer than it already is.

I'm not an outlier either. We have friends and family that do London to Edinburgh weekly, or fortnightly, and often further.

As for " bogus "massive investment" argument" that's a bogus-bogus statement. Sorry.

We need to double the energy generation in this country to go fully EV and replace all new, and old registered vehicles (there's 25 million registered with the DVLA). We need to additionally add charging points to homes, and on-street. On-street is the worst - can you imagine digging up every street in inner London that has residents with cars to satisfy 'all EV in new cars by 2030'?

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#349
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are way off. It took about 15 years to go from cities dominated by horse carriages to them being dominated by cars. It took longer in agriculture and rural areas. But the shift to electrical vehicles is trivial in comparison. Technically and economically we could easily prohibit new fossil fuelled cars by 2025. Sun and wind power is already much cheaper to install than coal powered plants, and once sun and wind p…

It happened because Ford T cost 4x cheaper per mile than a horse-drawn carriage, in a city (less difference in the countryside). It was a no-brainer to switch. When your horse died, it would be stupid to buy another when you had an option to buy a Model T. Same can't be said about electric cars. So far, it's almost at the contrary.

In Europe where the fuel is properly taxed for it CO2 emissions, the lifetime mile cost of an electric car is already lower than corresponding gasoline car.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No- the UK enters a WTO agreement on the 1st jan, that means imports taxes, duties and restrictions on a whole bunch of things. It’s impossible to plan for because it can all change at the last minute. It’s easy to say nothing will change if it doesn’t affect you. I don’t understand why a trade agreement with a few extra bits of international legislation was put to a general public referendum. It’s got nothing to do…

> No- the UK enters a WTO agreement on the 1st jan, that means imports taxes, duties and restrictions on a whole bunch of things The WTO's goal is to reduce trade friction, hence it puts ceilings on duties. The UK (now) sets its own taxes, duties and restrictions, being part of the WTO does not affect that. As a service dominated economy it's in the UK's interests to lower protective barriers - setting tariffs to zer…

> It was only a combination of electoral fraud (in Farage's case)

Reading this back, it reads like it was Farage that was the one engaging in fraud, but it was the Conservative party[0]. Barely a whisper in the media about it because it suited them, and nothing was done about it, which may be a timely lesson…

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Mackinlay#Electoral_spen...

Post reply on HN