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‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

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Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#421

Post by lawnchair_larry »

lliamander wrote: post #220
ojbyrne wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the right has moved the Overton Window so much to the right that they see things that most of the world would see as mainstream (Black Lives Matter, Abortion, Medicare for All, Defund the Police, Anti-Fascism etc) as extreme.

None of those things, properly understood[1], were in any way mainstream until very recently. And arguably still aren't mainstream. [1] Obviously, black lives do matter and fascism is bad, but as slogans "Black Lives Matter" and "Anti-Fascism" represent very radical political programs. You should be as suspicious of these slogans as I assume you are of slogans like "All Lives Matter" and "Anti-Communism".

And the fact that people apparently can’t stand to hear this shows how far left the tech overton window has shifted. As if we all were not already aware.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#422

Post by WalterBright »

busterarm wrote: post #276
WalterBright wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rich enough to buy the newspaper That's not how it worked. The moment Gutenberg invented the printing press, printers popped up everywhere and printed anything and everything. That means newspapers, newsletters, pamphlets, flyers, advertisements, bills, leaflets, everything. It was cheap to print, not remotely restricted to the rich, and you certainly did not need to buy a newspaper. Schools print newspapers, busin…

newspapers have reach, which is in the context we're talking about when making comparisons to twitter. sure, you could cheaply print stuff, but you had to (pay people to) stand on a lot of street corners to get your message out there.

Thomas Paine made money off of Common Sense.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#423

Post by dragonwriter »

konjin wrote: post #398
dragonwriter wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Joe Biden wrote the original Patriot act. No, he didn't. USA PATRIOT Act was from Rep. Sensenbrenner (R-WI). It incorporated material from 3 earlier bills, one of which was also by Rep. Sensenbrenner (R-WI), the others by Sen. Daschle (D-SD) and Rep. Oxley (R-OH). https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/house-bill/3162...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Counterterrorism_Act_o... I should have said draft instead of original.

It wasnt substantively similar to the USA PATRIOT Act, beyond being laws that have some relation to terrorism.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#424

Post by Pokepokalypse »

tekknik wrote: post #381
newguy1234 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah very true I guess. I guess the big eye opener now is that cell phones are cheap and high speed mobile data is cheap so that allows anyone to become a "citizen reporter" so to speak. If something serious is happening, it is very likely someone will be live streaming it to facebook, youtube or similar platform so that is a complete game changer at breaking away from main stream media.

I think an even bigger eye opener for me is that we seem to have agreement on both sides that there is bias and it’s creating division, but we don’t see any catalyst for change it. If a true ly neutral news org came out (or exists already) would people give up their biased soap operas for the good of the country?

There is way too much money to be made in biased "news" sources. And they're all biased. I think the only one we MIGHT be able to rely on is AP since it's a non-profit. But I don't know if that is any guarantee.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#425

Post by slg »

RonanTheGrey wrote: post #394
slg wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A free and open internet also allows propaganda and hate to flourish which are two bedrocks of most authoritarian and nationalist regimes. It isn't as simple as ending censorship will allow everyone to be free.

I'm curious -- what are you hoping that argument will accomplish? Freedom of ANY kind allows bad things to happen. The most secure world is one in which we are all locked up, nobody ever interacts, and are only fed via tube from their government provided feeder in their government provided cube. Since I'm fairly sure that isn't what you're advocating, please, explain what you're hoping to accomplish by stating that a…

I was responding to a comment that stated an authoritarian/nationalistic movement would fear a free and open internet. I was pointing out that a free and open internet can be a tool of an authoritarian/nationalistic movement. I was hoping to open some people's eyes to how openness can be abused.

Also I don't know if this was intentional, but just letting you know that your phrasing of this post comes off as needlessly confrontational. You can ask for clarification without asking "what are you hoping that argument will accomplish" which sounds accusatory as it implies a nefarious motive.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#426

Post by Arainach »

ttt0 wrote: post #373
tstrimple wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would take that bet and your money. https://www.niemanlab.org/2020/10/two-new-studies-show-again...

I don't know, I haven't been on facebook since ages, because I got sick of constantly being banned for discussing politics.

Facebook doesn't ban you for discussing politics - unless your version of "politics" involves advocating for violence.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#427

Post by samstave »

jedberg wrote: post #310
Der_Einzige wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN really needs a way to force people to have at least clicked on the article before posting. Maybe something where the article has to be clicked on, and then a X minute timer is started so that people will be strongly incentivized to read the article before commenting.

We tried that on reddit a long time ago. It didn't work. We realized that a lot of people just want to see the discussion. I always click on the comments first myself to see if the article is even worth reading.

First and foremost thanks for reddit, Ive had an account for 14years, and pretty much hit the site every single day for 14 years

With that said; I do the same thing... but I rarely upvote a story - I do check out stories but far far less than the comments.

I do the same here on HN. Especially here because there are a ton of smart people here and HN is pretty strict on being anti-troll - but i dont count ant-trolling as censorship, it’s forum-housekeeping.

Before reddit I mostly was on slashdot, and some other forums that don’t exit any longer.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#428

Post by lawnchair_larry »

tstrimple wrote: post #359
cortic wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Propaganda is vulnerable to open discourse, promoters of false information are handicapped by the flaws in their arguments. The only way it can flourish is censored away into manipulative misdirection and secretive groups. There is also the immunity to bad ideas aspect; Its important that the propaganda is heard openly and argued against in public, as this makes people immune to these arguments. Censor these bad idea…

> Propaganda is vulnerable to open discourse, promoters of false information are handicapped by the flaws in their arguments. The only way it can flourish is censored away into manipulative misdirection and secretive groups. This is so false it's bordering on the absurd. Anyone with even a little experience with debate and techniques like Gish gallop, which are widely employed, know that rational arguments simply do…

> More than 80% of Trump supporters believe the election was rigged against their candidate despite there literally being no evidence supporting this claim.

This is not accurate. Many non-Trump supporters also do not trust the results. I suspect you have not paid a lot of attention to the legitimate concerns.

> We're seeing propaganda succeed on such a massive scale because it's so widely spread and so difficult to counter.

This is true, but as of late, it’s going the opposite direction. It’s not that anything that contradicts their views is fake news, it’s the stuff that contradicts reality. See finepeoplehoax.org for a great example.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#429

Post by joe_the_user »

chrisco255 wrote: post #83
varispeed wrote: post #40

The problem is that we didn't teach people about manipulation techniques because that was governments' favourite tool to control the masses. Now that anybody can reach anyone with any information, bad actors use these techniques to control people to their advantage. Governments' are now in an awkward position - ramp up education in these areas and forever give up a tool that worked for ages, or censor the information…

You've failed to make the case that the government is not a "bad actor". They've used all sorts of manufactured consensus techniques to get us into unjust wars or to give up our liberties (i.e. mass surveillance, lockdowns, etc) for over-blown threats. We aren't going to get education from the government. Open debate and discussion are really the only cure for propaganda.

You've failed to make the case that the government is not a "bad actor".

I think a close reading of the OP would show they aren't portraying the state with great friendliness. Some run the show for the benefit of powerful forces and to various extents try to think about long term goals. "Bad Actors" is a decent shorthand for group trying also serving the wealthy and themselves but with a destructively short term agenda.

The key point the GP makes and I think you're missing is that stop manipulation isn't a matter of removing "tyrants" but creating an active, educated population.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#430

Post by busterarm »

ccn0p wrote: post #328
busterarm wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than that. We're seeing the teaming up of governments and giant corporations to control the narrative and tell people what's true and what isn't. It's the literal definition of fascism. And you see it being championed by people as defending against "the greatest threat to our democracy".

You can see elements of the slippery slope happening with the rewriting of American history in public government-funded schooling. “who controls the past controls the future. who controls the present, controls the past”

I can't imagine what I would do if I had children. Homeschooling for sure.
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