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‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

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Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#141

Post by naringas »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #126
varispeed wrote: post #40

The problem is that we didn't teach people about manipulation techniques because that was governments' favourite tool to control the masses. Now that anybody can reach anyone with any information, bad actors use these techniques to control people to their advantage. Governments' are now in an awkward position - ramp up education in these areas and forever give up a tool that worked for ages, or censor the information…

>The problem is that we didn't teach people about manipulation techniques I don't know where you're from, but it's part of the Victorian (possibly Australian) curriculum for all year 12 students. And we still ended up with Rupert Murdoch.

just because it's in the curriculum doesn't mean it will be taught well.

consider (for example) k-12 mathematics pretty much anywhere...

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#142

Post by dragonwriter »

the-dude wrote: post #135
VBprogrammer wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The president of the United States has been using these platforms to lie to the entire world unashamedly. For the most part not even the skillful half truths, statistics and selective quoting that politicians are known for, just complete fabrications and nutjob conspiracies. The corporations had the choice to continue to be complicit, silence him completely or provide some balance from other sources. It seems to me t…

You are talking about Bush the 2nd right?

I don't know if you've been under a rock for more than a decade, but, no, Bush the Younger is not President of the United States. (Sure, some of the bad acts under his administration prefigured bad acts under this one.)

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#143

Post by paxys »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #126
varispeed wrote: post #40

The problem is that we didn't teach people about manipulation techniques because that was governments' favourite tool to control the masses. Now that anybody can reach anyone with any information, bad actors use these techniques to control people to their advantage. Governments' are now in an awkward position - ramp up education in these areas and forever give up a tool that worked for ages, or censor the information…

>The problem is that we didn't teach people about manipulation techniques I don't know where you're from, but it's part of the Victorian (possibly Australian) curriculum for all year 12 students. And we still ended up with Rupert Murdoch.

Maybe it is part of the curriculum because you ended up with Murdoch. That guy has been running the show since the 60s.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#144

Post by busterarm »

n0nc3 wrote: post #131
tptacek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has never in the history of western civilization been easier for people to inject random claims into the public discourse. Neither Mike Wallace at 60 Minutes nor Otis Chandler at the LA Times would have given an inch of space for QAnon or antivax, but the "giant corporations" you allude to today do so happily, and at a scale no newspaper publisher would have imagined 50 years ago.

Conversely, it has never been easier to inject true claims that are inconvenient for gatekeepers. What tilts the balance of equities in favor of censorship for you?

It's coming from people that don't share his politics.

You won't find anyone on this board more quick to defend censorship along political lines.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#145

Post by cogman10 »

DrJones1098 wrote: post #82
cogman10 wrote: post #61

I have to wondered how we "fix" our current internet situation. On the one hand, censorship appears to be appealing to stop the tide of misinformation. Anti-vaxx garbage is a prime example of something that should be censored into oblivion. It is actively harmful to the public. But, on the other hand, who pulls the levers of censorship is equally terrifying. I don't want a world where a dissenting opinion is censored…

You can't have both censorship of things you don't like (anti-vaxx things) and no censorship of things you do like. Religion could be classified as mis-information but that helps a lot of people. Who is the final arbitrator of what is determined as misinformation? If one religion took control that one religion could classify another religion as mis-information and censor them. If one political actor took control they…

The problem is that the scales are completely unbalanced when it comes to information vs misinformation.

There is political and financial incentives at play to spread misinformation. It isn't as simple as "the best ideas win" as most social media platforms make it REALLY easy to manipulate the narrative.

For example, if some politician will negatively impact my business, I can hire a BUNCH of people to go out and write nasty comments about that politician. I can create fake media pages to support whatever narrative I want against that candidate. I can do all of this for relatively little money. We see this phenomenon come up time and time again when it comes to review websites. Most people "in the know" don't trust amazon reviews because they know companies astroturf them like crazy.

Climate change is a place where this also happens a LOT. Man made climate change is a nearly undisputed fact in the scientific world, yet roughly half of Americans either don't believe in it or are unsure about it. Why? Because there's big incentives behind the fossil fuel industry to spread FUD and misinformation about climate change. On the flip side, there's just not the money or resources available to climate scientists to correct that narrative.

I can buy that "some censorship doesn't work" however, it appears that a free for all is equally broken.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#146

Post by jimvdv »

busterarm wrote: post #47
varispeed wrote: post #40

The problem is that we didn't teach people about manipulation techniques because that was governments' favourite tool to control the masses. Now that anybody can reach anyone with any information, bad actors use these techniques to control people to their advantage. Governments' are now in an awkward position - ramp up education in these areas and forever give up a tool that worked for ages, or censor the information…

It's worse than that. We're seeing the teaming up of governments and giant corporations to control the narrative and tell people what's true and what isn't. It's the literal definition of fascism. And you see it being championed by people as defending against "the greatest threat to our democracy".

“Literally fascism” is a little overused. I’m not saying governments and corporations teaming up is a good thing, but let’s not use fascism here, that will only make it harder to recognise actual fascism.

If corporations and a heavily authoritarian government team up to crack down on anyone who they believe is the slightest treat to the success of some imagined single-minded Volk, then yes we can talk about fascism.

Until that time I think you can at best put down an argument for why you believe this censorship situation will be a slippery slope that ends in fascism.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#147

Post by cambalache »

colechristensen wrote: post #43
cambalache wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let the laws and courts determine that. Not Mark Zuckerberg or Jack Dorsey.

Social media outlets are publishers, I have no problem with them editorializing. I wouldn’t have a problem with a book store not carrying a book or a newspaper not publishing a crank opinion piece, why should I have a problem with twitter banning someone (or whatever else)?

Because then you will have to shut your mouth when Google delists you, youtube deplatforms you and Amex/Visa/MasterCard refuse to do business with you just because something, perfectly legal, that you said. Maybe it is OK for you, for me it is bone chilling scary.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#148

Post by m-p-3 »

cambalache wrote: post #29
grezql wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im totally against Social medias. And believe they have caused mental health damage to large section of the population. but lets talk about general censorship vs freedom without Social medias in the equation.

There are 2 approaches. You could argue that freedom of speech is a sacrosant right, like the right to live, that no law(not even the constitution) can overrule. You will lost that battle, with reason, because things like child pornography or slander must not be protected. So the second approach is to say, ok, some things are better censored, let the laws to clearly define that. If something must be appended or remov…

> let the laws clearly define that.

If there is one thing about laws is that they're messy and complex, a reflection of the world we live in. Our culture and values constantly evolve, and the laws are normally following those so something legal or illegal at this moment might not be in the future.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#149

Post by VBprogrammer »

the-dude wrote: post #135
VBprogrammer wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The president of the United States has been using these platforms to lie to the entire world unashamedly. For the most part not even the skillful half truths, statistics and selective quoting that politicians are known for, just complete fabrications and nutjob conspiracies. The corporations had the choice to continue to be complicit, silence him completely or provide some balance from other sources. It seems to me t…

You are talking about Bush the 2nd right?

Alas, Facebook was founded 4 years too late for even the younger Bush.

Re: ‘Extremely aggressive’ internet censorship spreads in the world’s democracies

#150

Post by ggggtez »

vinni2 wrote: post #28

> ISPs in Norway are imposing what the study calls “extremely aggressive” blocking across a broader range of content, including human rights websites like Human Rights Watch and online dating sites like Match.com. I have no trouble accessing hrw.org and match.com in Norway. I wonder is it specific to some ISPs? I also couldn’t find any law that was passed to block certain pornogrpahic websites in Wikipedia [1] and I…

I believe they are saying that it happened in 2018, not today.

It's possible that it was a mistake, and corrected, but it should still concern you that it was done to begin with.

Telecoms should not be the arbiters of what content you view.

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