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The biology of dads

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Re: The biology of dads

#271

Post by lallysingh »

mqrs wrote: post #255
lallysingh wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting study might be parents who later learn that their kids aren't actually theirs. Did they treat their kids differently than real biological children? All kinds of ethical issues, etc., but the data would be awesome.

Even if you could resolve the ethical issues, the only thing that a study would prove is that “people tend not to care for children that aren’t theirs”, and not “biological relation is necessary for a parent to be able to care for an adopted child”.

No I meant how people treated those kids before they learned that the kids weren't theirs.

Re: The biology of dads

#272

Post by Balgair »

vijayr02 wrote: post #262
Balgair wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> think Maximus, Achilles or Michael Jordan Maximus is a bit of a strange choice there. Marcus Aurelius of Meditations fame, is the titular grandfather figure in the film (right at the start). Meditations has a lot in it about child rearing and Marcus was something of a devoted father to his many children (for Roman men in those days). All that said, his son, Commodus, the first emperor to have the title passed down…

> Commodus, the first emperor to have the title passed down to him from his own father I don't think that's right? Titus[0] succeeded Vespasian in 79 AD, father to son. Both were good rulers BTW, but Titus was succeeded by Domitian (younger brother) who was a disaster and assassinated for it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus

Argh! You are correct.

I meant to use the old saying of 'born in the purple', in that Commodus was the first emperor born and raised to be one. But I tried to use a simpler way of speaking and was, of course, wrong about it. Thank you.

Re: The biology of dads

#273

Post by gabereiser »

mqrs wrote: post #248
gabereiser wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I echo this. I’m an empty nester now but when I was raising kids (really early on) most of my friends were going to bars and didn’t understand the responsibility. Now they are all having kids and looking to me for answers... like there’s a manual for kids. I felt the most pride in my life watching my step-daughter get her diploma. I, a masculine man who was taught to bottle it all up and stuff upper lip, cried like a…

> Those who have kids know. Those who don’t just will never understand. Oh come on, I was agreeing with your comment until this totally unnecessary condescension. Part of being a mature person (which you imply to claim you are) is the knowledge that whatever you know isn’t necessarily special to your experience, and that other people may arrive at it through a different set of experiences. In this case, being proud o…

Very very true... in this case, think of “having kids” as possession.

Re: The biology of dads

#274

Post by MaximumYComb »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #117
MaximumYComb wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Babies aren't meant to be fun. I became a single dad when I had a baby and a two year old. Honestly, I don't think most men are wired for doing this role. The 4-5 years that followed were very difficult for me mentally. I was socially isolated, had no support (all support structures were mother orientated) and I had two really little kids to care for. I'm not sure if I changed, or it's simply easier for me now they'r…

> Honestly, I don't think most men are wired for doing this role... I was socially isolated, had no support (all support structures were mother orientated) Maybe it's the social structures that aren't wired for men to do it, rather than the biological ones. What made you feel like the difference was biological rather than due to external society?

Two reasons. The first is that women tend to just like babies. Female friends want to hold a baby but male friends almost never do. Women get "clucky" around them, etc.

The second is that when my youngest was 6 months old I felt nothing for him. I saw a psychologist about this and they said it was really normal for dads to not feel connected to second+ kids until the kids are past a year.

Re: The biology of dads

#275

Post by jelliclesfarm »

boringg wrote: post #240
jelliclesfarm wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except they are parasites. for women, biologically, the foetus considers the mother's body as the host body and siphons off resources. and thats ok. because the parasite is 50% of host DNA. all babies are born premature because we evolved quickly and the human female's pelvic bones didnt grow as wide and as quickly as the baby's head to come through the birth canal. even after birth, the human baby needs the mother/f…

I have to say that this is an interesting perspective to take. Seems highly functional. Not sure if I agree or disagree, I do find it interesting.

I have often wondered if it’s more of a symbiotic relationship rather than a parasitic one because in fairness, the foetus doesn’t kill the host.

Having said that, symbiosis only occurs with two distinctly different species.

With pregnancy and the human fetus, it’s is a kind of quasi-parasitic relationship because the host survives the parasite. Even though it’s changed. (Pregnancy changes body chemistry and functionally not just physical change)

Re: The biology of dads

#276

Post by jelliclesfarm »

andrewem wrote: post #254
boringg wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to say that this is an interesting perspective to take. Seems highly functional. Not sure if I agree or disagree, I do find it interesting.

If that interests you, see the philosophical debates about the nature and existence of consciousness, e.g. https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-d... and the follow-up https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/04/03/magic-illusions-and... I thought of this connection because of the philosopher Daniel Dennett's writing about the Sphex wasp.

Thank you for the links.

The Sphex wasp behaviour is common to most wasps. They are fierce mothers. I have seen it first hand with tarantula wasps in my farm where the female wasp will paralyze tarantula with a neurotoxin. Then she lays the eggs in the still alive tarantula’s belly. It’s insides liquify and after the baby wasps come along, they are nourished by the fortifying soup of the ..wait for it..still-living tarantula’s innards.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150109-the-wasp-that-scares...

A more dramatic telling here on video: https://www.newsweek.com/horrifying-video-shows-giant-wasp-p...

Re: The biology of dads

#277

Post by touisteur »

sizzle wrote: post #258
tuatoru wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For myself, having kids taught me things about myself that I'd have been happier never knowing. Not a better person, just happier. On balance the knowledge is worth it to me.

That you'd be happier never knowing? I'm curious what some insights are you learned from your journey.

Not the parent but the birth of my kids and their growing up 'caused' a cascade childhood trauma to bubble up. It was overwhelming for months and it messed me up for years, including bouts of depression and lots of trauma purges. Not the kids' doing, just some mirror effect, situations triggering and unlocking memories. And I feel it's even worse if you try alternative, progressive education methods, that give lots of agency to children, that focus on understanding the emotional state of mind, on accepting everyone's emotions without judgement, with infinite patience, the absolute minimum of coercion, and go so much in opposition to the way I was 'raised'.

Not saying I agree with parent that I'd be happier for sure in some ways, but I sure didn't expect so much psychological pain in addition to the hard work of raising kids.

Re: The biology of dads

#278

Post by touisteur »

lqet wrote: post #151
ksdale wrote: post #58

"They seemed like ideal infant-caregivers: calm, gentle, patient and sensitive. They didn’t seem like men you would go to battle with. In fact, they were the very antithesis of the warriors and athletes – think Maximus, Achilles or Michael Jordan – often associated with a masculine ideal." I became a father quite a bit before most of my friends, and so was the butt of some jokes about masculinity for the way I parent…

> "go to battle" I remember that in the first days after my kid was born, the thought that I would defend that child to the bitter end against any attacker suddenly seemed completely natural, even trivial. It was quite strange and included a sudden extreme awareness of (and aggressive feelings against) animals which came to close. This included dogs. The feelings were overwhelmingly archaic. I talked to my wife about…

It started for me the minute they were born. They had to take my first born twin in the next room while the second was coming, and I was so angry and mad, I barely contained myself and stayed bedside with my suffering wife. To this day I'm still so angry about this, and I beat myself I wasn't more of an advocate for my first-born girl...

And then when they wanted to take one or the other away for exams, and I wouldn't leave them alone for a second. No fucking way. Yeah no, you're not taking them away to the nursery, I'll watch and console my girls while my wife gets some sleep.

I know it'll seem strange but there's probably only 2 people in the world I'd leave my girls alone at home with, even though they're 4 now. And none of them are our parents. Some friendly neighbors for acute emergencies, maybe, but the list is short.

And boy, having twins is a sure way to get attention, especially from nosy old people, that will put their face so close to the kids' or will remove the fucking stroller covers to see the baby's face (WTF!) and be angry when you say 'please don't'... I was humouring the old ladies, but my wife was dragon-like.

Re: The biology of dads

#279

Post by exolymph »

mqrs wrote: post #248
gabereiser wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I echo this. I’m an empty nester now but when I was raising kids (really early on) most of my friends were going to bars and didn’t understand the responsibility. Now they are all having kids and looking to me for answers... like there’s a manual for kids. I felt the most pride in my life watching my step-daughter get her diploma. I, a masculine man who was taught to bottle it all up and stuff upper lip, cried like a…

> Those who have kids know. Those who don’t just will never understand. Oh come on, I was agreeing with your comment until this totally unnecessary condescension. Part of being a mature person (which you imply to claim you are) is the knowledge that whatever you know isn’t necessarily special to your experience, and that other people may arrive at it through a different set of experiences. In this case, being proud o…

Au contraire, maturity entails realizing that if you haven't experienced something, you don't know what it's like. That's certainly true of creating a new human being.

Re: The biology of dads

#280

Post by zigzaggy »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #108

One aspect of fatherhood that surprised me is what I call the 'rescue response'. I was not able to find any formal information about this behavior, but I have to think there is something out there. I have experienced this exactly twice in my life on separate occasions: My child entered a physically and immediately dangerous situation. As soon as I saw their peril, my mind went into a kind of flow state. I didn't take…

I've had a similar response. My son wrecked his bike and fell into a creek once and I swear I heard him scream a block away. I ran out to the creek and pulled him out before anyone else in my house even got on scene. There are whole videos of "dad's saving kids." (0)

But it's not just men. When I was very young, before I could swim, I fell into a pool and my grandmother dove in and saved me. She was like a bolt of lightening. I don't have many memories of being young. But I sure do remember that one.

0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6__QYkV_qs <- but this one isn't very serious

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