"Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#61

Post by PunchTornado » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #22

rich_sasha wrote: post #5

This, and similar moans, really misses the point. Employment is a social contract, looking for a compromise between two positions: * Employers want to essentially acquire a good (productive employee) for the best quality / price ratio. If a trained monkey could do the job for peanuts, employers would be happy. * Employees, and the society made up of employees, want stability, employment rights etc. as salary work is…

> there is no moral obligation for employers to pay a wage that's fair, based on the value of the employee work, perhaps above ~subsistence levels. is there moral obligation to do your job well instead of let's say watching youtube and doing bare minimum not to get fired? It's funny how people expect moral behaviour from other people but not from companies made of these people. Somehow it's fine for companies to be j…

> is there moral obligation to do your job well instead of let's say watching youtube and doing bare minimum not to get fired?

of course not. I do that all the time and don't think I'm doing something imoral. it's up to the employer to figure out that I could do more tickets. I'm not stupid to say: hey, I finished my tickets, give me more work :))

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#62

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

jacknews wrote: post #43

mantap wrote: post #32

Cost of living is a swindle, at least when it applies internationally and cross culturally. If you want to live like a local in Jakarta (to use an extreme example), you can do so very cheaply, $180 a month for a room, eat rice for breakfast lunch and dinner. If you want to live like a San Franciscan in Jakarta, it will cost as much if not more as in San Francisco. An apartment will cost several thousand dollars a mon…

Exactly. It's basically a scam to try and pay people in 'poor' countries less.

[deleted]

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#63

Post by TigeriusKirk » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

If I can hire someone in Dayton for $90k or someone in Palo Alto for $150k, who do you think I'm hiring?

Over time the pay will become equal, and high COL areas will either stop being high COL or will no longer be where people are hired from.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#64

Post by pavel_lishin » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #22

rich_sasha wrote: post #5

This, and similar moans, really misses the point. Employment is a social contract, looking for a compromise between two positions: * Employers want to essentially acquire a good (productive employee) for the best quality / price ratio. If a trained monkey could do the job for peanuts, employers would be happy. * Employees, and the society made up of employees, want stability, employment rights etc. as salary work is…

> there is no moral obligation for employers to pay a wage that's fair, based on the value of the employee work, perhaps above ~subsistence levels. is there moral obligation to do your job well instead of let's say watching youtube and doing bare minimum not to get fired? It's funny how people expect moral behaviour from other people but not from companies made of these people. Somehow it's fine for companies to be j…

> It's funny how people expect moral behaviour from other people but not from companies made of these people. Somehow it's fine for companies to be jerks.

We expect different behavior from a beehive than we expect from the bees, don't we?

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#65

Post by gamesbrainiac » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

I think paying remote workers the same salary as you pay your on-site workers, especially for development is the smart thing to do.

Eventually, most people are just going to live further away and commute less.

It also gives people less of an incentive to migrate to bigger cities; they can live comfortably in their own and invest in their own cities.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#66

Post by ukoki » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

However employers decide to compensate employees in our post-Covid future, it doesn't matter because they must still participate in the market.

If an employer's particular remote-salary algorithm spits out a number that is less then what equally-qualified employees can get elsewhere, they will go elsewhere. If not, they won't. The end effect is that any employer participating in a market will must pay what that market is demanding, regardless of what the algorithm says.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#67

Post by TigeriusKirk » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

ponker wrote: post #35

Ekaros wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With remote work employers in SF aren't any more competing with talent pool of SF, but national or global pool. Supply and demand in action. Supply has increased, demand remain stable or lower. Means prices(wages) are going to go down. Ofc, if they want people to come and sit in their SF office they have to pay more. On other hand if they can get replacement for their ex-local resource for remote for cheaper they mig…

Sure, I just think the conversation right now is, "Why would you pay me less if I move from SF to Alabama, I'm the same guy doing the same work." The conversation in the future will be "Why would I hire you in SF and pay you three times what I'm paying in Alabama? You're equivalent guys doing the same work." The concept of the "standard" will shift from the highest-paid locale to the lowest, and "Cost of Living Adjus…

This is where it ends up. Alabama salaries will rise, but SF salaries will plummet.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#68

Post by White_Wolf » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

This has been in place for a while now as remote call centres and first line support that are set up in countries/cities where costs are low. They call it externalized services where I work.

Tbh if the company where I am would pay the same no matter where you're located I'd go live in a flat Bucharest for 1/3 of the cost I have now and probably buy 10 2 bedroom flats there in 10 years and then retire. If my wife would be able to do the same we'd retire in 6-7 years tops.

OR

If I still have to be in the same country I could leave the London area and move up north for a fraction of the cost.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#69

Post by cashewchoo » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

ukoki wrote: post #59

ajuc wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no moral obligation for employers to pay a wage that's fair, based on the value of the employee work, perhaps above ~subsistence levels. is there moral obligation to do your job well instead of let's say watching youtube and doing bare minimum not to get fired? It's funny how people expect moral behaviour from other people but not from companies made of these people. Somehow it's fine for companies to be j…

> is there moral obligation to do your job well instead of let's say watching youtube and doing bare minimum not to get fired? No You can choose to do well to avoid being fired. You can choose to do well to chase a promotion. You can choose to do well because the work interests you. But you are not morally obligated to do anything, and if your employer is not very good at evaluating your work, then — like a man who b…

I think an extremely large percentage of America would disagree with you, though. The puritan work ethic is absolutely the backbone of society for a lot of americans.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#70

Post by xur17 » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 2:30 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #36

Pay is a power relationship. No one is asking company directors to take a pay cut based on cost of living calculations, because company directors have power over their companies. Similarly cleaners are paid peanuts even if they have to live/commute to high cost of living cities to do the job, because cleaners have no power in the relationship. This is also why workers who unionise can be paid more - the union has pow…

> This is also why workers who unionise can be paid more - the union has power over the employer.

I'm not convinced a union wouldn't adjust pay based on location though. A lot of times they already adjust pay by tenure, and other factors that don't affect job performance directly.

Right now employees at tech companies do have power. If you get an offer that is adjusted based on cost of living, you can say no, and there are plenty of other places hiring.