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"Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

nityesh.com

31–40 of 624 posts

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#31
> Competitive, and not monopolistic, markets, produce the best outcomes for all consumers. If you subscribe to this belief, then an increased competition between the governments can only result in an increase in standard of living of everyone in the world.

It's one thing to allow remote workers from one country to work from anywhere in the world. It's a completely different thing to create a universal and homogenized labour market for tech work.

Universal salaries would allow established and well funded companies to hire anyone anywhere at massively unfair non-local salaries. Individuals would be better off but the job market for equivalent local jobs would suffer and, as a result, new companies in those nations would suffer too.

The difference in purchasing power of the established tech companies in rich nations would annihilate the local labour market competition. It would become next to impossible for non-rich-nation startups to hire the best talent because of the huge opportunity costs potential employees would face. Exporting the benefits of economic privilege like this at the expense of host nations is textbook economic imperialism[0].

Individual benefit isn't the only lens that this issue needs to be examined through.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#32
Cost of living is a swindle, at least when it applies internationally and cross culturally.

If you want to live like a local in Jakarta (to use an extreme example), you can do so very cheaply, $180 a month for a room, eat rice for breakfast lunch and dinner.

If you want to live like a San Franciscan in Jakarta, it will cost as much if not more as in San Francisco. An apartment will cost several thousand dollars a month. Non-native food that gets imported, such as olive oil or cheese, will be very expensive.

So which is the definition of "cost of living" of a city? Is it how the average person lives there, or is how much it costs for the same lifestyle as where the company is based?

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#33
post #25

This, and similar moans, really misses the point. Employment is a social contract, looking for a compromise between two positions: * Employers want to essentially acquire a good (productive employee) for the best quality / price ratio. If a trained monkey could do the job for peanuts, employers would be happy. * Employees, and the society made up of employees, want stability, employment rights etc. as salary work is…

On the one hand lying about your location to an employer seems sketchy. On the other hand COL adjusted pay seems pretty much equally sketchy. Employers trying to adjust salaries based upon COL really isn't much different to printer manufacturers software disabling printers and selling them at a cheaper price. It's an attempt at price differentiation - in the opposite direction.

When employers ask employees where they live, they may already know the answer and ask only to indirectly answer others questions.

I would think what is documented and certified when filing taxes will be important, perhaps retroactively. Jobs and new software tools may pop up to help companies better understand their geographically distributed workforce from an accounting perspective. Employees with legal challenges (past or present) have the potential to reduce productivity.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#34
post #22

This, and similar moans, really misses the point. Employment is a social contract, looking for a compromise between two positions: * Employers want to essentially acquire a good (productive employee) for the best quality / price ratio. If a trained monkey could do the job for peanuts, employers would be happy. * Employees, and the society made up of employees, want stability, employment rights etc. as salary work is…

> there is no moral obligation for employers to pay a wage that's fair, based on the value of the employee work, perhaps above ~subsistence levels. is there moral obligation to do your job well instead of let's say watching youtube and doing bare minimum not to get fired? It's funny how people expect moral behaviour from other people but not from companies made of these people. Somehow it's fine for companies to be j…

> Somehow it's fine for companies to be jerks.

Look at many of the products we make together. Why would we hide behind laws that protect bad practices and think those same companies take a moral high ground on this issue. It is, and always will be, due in part to fiduciary responsibility to shareholders, about the money.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#35
post #24
post #19

Right now, we are at an unusual point in time where workforces are going from geographically consolidated to dispersed. Thus, we think of the "standard" salary as what they pay in San Francisco, and ask for everyone to be paid that. But the advantage of a remote workforce, from the employer's point of view, is 1) getting the brilliant people who can't leave their hometown to work for you, and 2) not having to pay San…

With remote work employers in SF aren't any more competing with talent pool of SF, but national or global pool. Supply and demand in action. Supply has increased, demand remain stable or lower. Means prices(wages) are going to go down. Ofc, if they want people to come and sit in their SF office they have to pay more. On other hand if they can get replacement for their ex-local resource for remote for cheaper they mig…

Sure, I just think the conversation right now is, "Why would you pay me less if I move from SF to Alabama, I'm the same guy doing the same work."

The conversation in the future will be "Why would I hire you in SF and pay you three times what I'm paying in Alabama? You're equivalent guys doing the same work."

The concept of the "standard" will shift from the highest-paid locale to the lowest, and "Cost of Living Adjustment" will be something that employees in San Francisco plead for, not something that employees in Libya complain about.

The only way out of this will be to rebut the assertion "you're doing the same work," i.e. to have skills that are globally unique. Not that you have to be Jeff Dean to keep a job, but that you have to be a whole lot more capable than your peers, the same way that a product is not assumed to be manufactured in America unless there is a compelling reason to.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#36
Pay is a power relationship. No one is asking company directors to take a pay cut based on cost of living calculations, because company directors have power over their companies. Similarly cleaners are paid peanuts even if they have to live/commute to high cost of living cities to do the job, because cleaners have no power in the relationship. This is also why workers who unionise can be paid more - the union has power over the employer.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#37
Instead of providing blanket rules in the name of equality, companies should make decisions based on the value that a single employee brings compared to what they can hire in a remote first job.

Sure, average salaries will probably drop from SF ones. Rich companies will save some more money. Startups who have some mental flexibility will be able to snatch some good hires. Employees stuck in cheap countries will get more offers. Countries' economies will have a push to improve or become even more irrelevant. Politicians will steal even more taxes from remote workers. More people will start their own business.

The market and the world will go on.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#38
post #22

This, and similar moans, really misses the point. Employment is a social contract, looking for a compromise between two positions: * Employers want to essentially acquire a good (productive employee) for the best quality / price ratio. If a trained monkey could do the job for peanuts, employers would be happy. * Employees, and the society made up of employees, want stability, employment rights etc. as salary work is…

> there is no moral obligation for employers to pay a wage that's fair, based on the value of the employee work, perhaps above ~subsistence levels. is there moral obligation to do your job well instead of let's say watching youtube and doing bare minimum not to get fired? It's funny how people expect moral behaviour from other people but not from companies made of these people. Somehow it's fine for companies to be j…

> It's funny how people expect moral behaviour from other people

Do we though? We expect people to not break the rules, e.g murder or steal. We don't expect people to stop eating meat, polluting the earth, or generally to stop being extremely selfish. If we expected everyone to be moral you and I wouldn't be spending money on vacations and buying computer games but on trying to save poor kids in Africa and Bangladesh.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#39
It seems to me companies can either pay for the work, and how valuable it is to them, or pay by need, ie 'cost of living'.

But in the latter case, they should also be paying people with families more than singles, for example. Since that is not the case, I can't see how they can justify 'cost of living' adjustments.

Quite apart from the fact that the cost-of-living indices are often wildly incomparable. For example, sending your kids to a state school in Norway, vs for example Equatorial Guinea.

Obviously in the latter case, you actually need to send the kids to an often ludicrously expensive expat school to obtain even the same ball-park level of education, and so even though the cost of just living may be much lower, it is actually more expensive to maintain a comparable lifestyle.

Re: "Equal pay for equal work" in remote jobs

#40

> Competitive, and not monopolistic, markets, produce the best outcomes for all consumers. If you subscribe to this belief, then an increased competition between the governments can only result in an increase in standard of living of everyone in the world. It's one thing to allow remote workers from one country to work from anywhere in the world. It's a completely different thing to create a universal and homogenized…

Are you arguing that Indian employees should earn less because it's better for Indian employers?
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